details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry case

Open Carry is carrying a firearm unconcealed in Ohio. OC does not require a concealed handgun license, but the practice requires intimate knowledge of the law since there are places and situations where OC is prohibited but carrying concealed would be permitted. OC is also likely to attract attention. This forum is for discussion of OC, not for debating the pro's and con's or coordinating any type of protest events.

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deanimator
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by deanimator »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:Is being a jerk to the street cop called for? Sometimes.
The nauseating truth is that to more than a few cops (and their cheerleaders), anything less than sheer fawning servility to the point of boot licking is "being a jerk".

You're expected to waive all rights, consent to any search, speak without counsel, in short to give up every right you have as a United States citizen in order to show your "respect" for the cop.
Life comes at you fast. Be prepared to shoot it in the head when it does.
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by starride »

One question I have was the knife concealed in a pocket or clipped to the outside of the belt? I am really struggling with the fact that the prosecutor is continuing the case. From the audio and video I have heard it really sounds like the officers were reaching in order to justify the stop. It honestly sounded to me that the phone conversation was no more than two officers conspiring for a way to justify their violation of the OP's rights. Wouldn't this be abuse of office and conspiracy to violate some one's rights under color of law?
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TSiWRX
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by TSiWRX »

starride wrote:One question I have was the knife concealed in a pocket or clipped to the outside of the belt?
This was covered previously in the OP's various threads, but I know the details are hard to track down by reading through all the posts. :)

From the OP of this thread, we are given the following:
Michael Porschien wrote:...Det/Sgt John Payne of the Youngstown City Police (the officer who took my phone from me), who found that I was carrying a Gerber paraframe 4 inch, non serrated, stainless steel finish pocketknife, clipped to the outside of my belt, behind my left handed holster.
And later, Mr. Porschien posted:
Michael Porschien wrote:...
The knife was behind my holster, meaning the holster was further towards the front of my body on the belt. i have to reach my hand further back to grab the knife compared to the firearm, in other words.

All of these things being said, i want to state now that this thread's purpose is not to argue the lethality or suppressionability (word?) of the knife; that horse was very thoroughly kicked in my original thread. My lawyer was thankful for the case law and extensive research that the collective here at OFCC did, though she did dig up most of it herself. What i want to discuss here is the legality of the stop itself, and why it happened in the first place. Towards that end...

I do not have access to a scanner, so i cannot at this time make a PDF file of my arrest report. I have been trying to find a scanner that i can use for several days with no luck. I can, however, type it out, redacting personal information. I will at some point find a Kinkos or something downtown.

Begin report:

Arretee: Michael Porschien
Date / Time arrested: 8/30/12 at 22:50
Location of Arrest: Madison Ave @ Michigan Ave
Arrest type: crime in progress

Arrestee notes: On 8/30/12 at 22:45 hrs YPD car 103 officer N. Menichini was on routine patrol traveling westbound on Madison Ave approaching Michigan Ave. At this time, officer Menichini observed a male white ( who was soon identified as Porschien, Michael) walking westbound on the north side of Madison Ave and it was immediately apparent that Michael was carrying a large handgun in a black holster on his left hip. Officer Menichini proceeded to turn northbound onto Michigan Ave. Officer Menichini pulled into a driveway on Michigan Ave to turn around, at this time he observed Michael proceed into the middle of Michigan Ave from the sidewalk, then stand on the cement median, and then proceed to the corner of Madison Ave and Michigan Ave where he stood on the sidewalk watching officer Menichini pull up toward his location.

As officer Menichini was approaching Michael, he began going into his front pants pocket then to his rear pants pocket. As officer Menichini exited the vehicle, he reached into his front right pants pocket and pulled out a black cell phone. Officer Menichini inquired as to why he was carrying a firearm and he stated "I am open carrying" and when officer Menichini asked him to clarify, he stated "because this is a dangerous town." At this time Det/Srg J. Payne, and YPD car 104 officer C. Eggleston, and P. Skowron arrived on scene. Due to the fact that Michael was carrying a handgun, officers were concerned for their safety and his safety, Det/Srg, Payne extracted Michael's firearm, cleared one round from the chamber and dropped the magazine carrying 15 rounds and secured the firearm inside marked car 206W. Det/Srg. Payne conducted a pat down for any other weapons and it was discovered during the pat down that Michael was concealing a knife (fold down blade) that was clipped to his belt in the front and was covered by his t-shirt. Det/Srg/ Payne also discovered an extra magazine containing 16 live rounds from his rear pant's pocket.
The highlights in the second post are mine, to help clarify the scenario for you.

From what I recall of my posts here/on other Forums, communicating with Mr. Porschien, that description of where/how the knife was placed was accurate.

FWIW, IANAL, but I also do not think that the focus should be on the knife.

Hope this helps answer your question, starride.
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starride
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by starride »

I agree with not focusing on the placement of the knife, I was asking for clarification because I didn't think the knife being outside of the clothes could make it still concealed and asked because it seemed a stretch that a t-shirt falling over a knife but exposing a holstered gun meets the definition of concealment, as well as the fact that the open carry also made it obvious that the OP was armed. As well as I question the capability to actually conceal the knife if it was in close proximity to the holster. Think about it. if the knife is right next to the holster and the holster is exposed that means the shirt is tucked in behind the holster. he would literally have to have a modified shirt to conceal the knife.

So to me that means the officer is reaching and looking for an excuse to charge for the knife. In my initial read through it sounded like the officer was trying to say the OP was concealing the knife just because plain view was obstructed by the holster.

IMNAL and I don't know the OP's financial situation, but I would fight this with everything I have just to make a point. Then go after them for money for abuse of authority. I honestly can not see a jury liking the tone and reaching that was going on in the telephone conversation and the fact that the OP's phone was taken away just to stop the OP from recording the incident.

I suspect the prosecutor is going to push this for no other reason than to try and protect the city from a later settlement.
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by Liberty Sanders »

I haven't been on in awhile and have just finished this thread.

My usual offer to act as an expert defense witness stands.

BB62 can explain my bona fides, if needed.
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by mdoerner »

So what is the latest on this? Has this been resolved in any way?

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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by TSiWRX »

starride wrote:I agree with not focusing on the placement of the knife, I was asking for clarification because I didn't think the knife being outside of the clothes could make it still concealed...
Understood.

I'm a knife hobbyist, too :) - and as you can imagine, this was indeed one of my first questions to Mr. Porschien.
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by Werz »

Liberty Sanders wrote:My usual offer to act as an expert defense witness stands.
Just out of curiosity, on what issue would you offer expert testimony?
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Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by Liberty Sanders »

I'm a retired police lieutenant. I would be prepared to testify as to the illegality of the stop and the unprofessional conduct of the officers.
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by Werz »

Liberty Sanders wrote:I'm a retired police lieutenant. I would be prepared to testify as to the illegality of the stop and the unprofessional conduct of the officers.
OK. The legality of the stop is a matter of law which must be resolved at a suppression hearing prior to trial and would not likely be subject to expert testimony. The conduct of the officers might be subject to expert testimony on training and departmental standards, but you would still need to issue a written report and your curriculum vitae, which would have to be provided to the prosecutor 21 days prior to trial.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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deanimator
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by deanimator »

Werz wrote:
Liberty Sanders wrote:I'm a retired police lieutenant. I would be prepared to testify as to the illegality of the stop and the unprofessional conduct of the officers.
OK. The legality of the stop is a matter of law which must be resolved at a suppression hearing prior to trial and would not likely be subject to expert testimony. The conduct of the officers might be subject to expert testimony on training and departmental standards, but you would still need to issue a written report and your curriculum vitae, which would have to be provided to the prosecutor 21 days prior to trial.
I'm pretty confident that he knows all of that.

You might want to research his previous posts...
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by Werz »

deanimator wrote:
Werz wrote:
Liberty Sanders wrote:I'm a retired police lieutenant. I would be prepared to testify as to the illegality of the stop and the unprofessional conduct of the officers.
OK. The legality of the stop is a matter of law which must be resolved at a suppression hearing prior to trial and would not likely be subject to expert testimony. The conduct of the officers might be subject to expert testimony on training and departmental standards, but you would still need to issue a written report and your curriculum vitae, which would have to be provided to the prosecutor 21 days prior to trial.
I'm pretty confident that he knows all of that.

You might want to research his previous posts...
I have. And I have no doubt about his expertise in police procedure.

My post was directed at the prerequisites to the introduction of expert testimony in the courtroom. By now, I assume you've figured out my area of expertise.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
slidelock
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by slidelock »

Update? rumors, theories discredited stories, lawsuits? Buehler?
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by Michael Porschien »

Things are going slowly, as i have not yet heard back from my civil attorney regarding action against YPD and officers John Payne and Menichini. i do not know how long it takes to plan the process and actually initiate civil action, and it's only been a week thus far. I need to make an appt to meet with them again, but have not yet done so. Probably by the end of the week or the beginning of the next. In the meantime, i'm holding off organizing any walks or other events to avoid angering the judges. There'll be plenty of time for that in the spring, methinks. Also, it's been bitter cold in Youngstown these past 2-3 weeks.
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by TunnelRat »

Michael Porschien wrote: In the meantime, i'm holding off organizing any walks or other events to avoid angering the judges. There'll be plenty of time for that in the spring, methinks. Also, it's been bitter cold in Youngstown these past 2-3 weeks.
Open carry isn't quite so noticeable when you're open carrying under a parka... 8)
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