details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry case

Open Carry is carrying a firearm unconcealed in Ohio. OC does not require a concealed handgun license, but the practice requires intimate knowledge of the law since there are places and situations where OC is prohibited but carrying concealed would be permitted. OC is also likely to attract attention. This forum is for discussion of OC, not for debating the pro's and con's or coordinating any type of protest events.

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sxshep
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by sxshep »

It's kind of disturbing the way they demanded your phone be shut off and confiscated it after you asked what their names were... I'll be following this one, best of luck to you!
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2ndamendment
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by 2ndamendment »

You can still have your gun rights stripped from you in a disorderly conduct case. If there was a gun or a knife involved i would say they will charge you with the one that strips your gun rights but if you get a disorderly conduct for cussing at an officer, you cant get your gun rights taken away from you. Read all the sub sections of Disorderly conduct. I would not plead out, I would let it go to a jury trial. Up to you though.
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by BobK »

2ndamendment wrote:You can still have your gun rights stripped from you in a disorderly conduct case. If there was a gun or a knife involved i would say they will charge you with the one that strips your gun rights but if you get a disorderly conduct for cussing at an officer, you cant get your gun rights taken away from you. Read all the sub sections of Disorderly conduct. I would not plead out, I would let it go to a jury trial. Up to you though.
Not accurate at all. Don't go scaring someone like that when you don't know what you are talking about.

Disorderly Conduct convictions are not classified as an "offense of violence", so they don't even prevent someone from getting a CHL, much less losing their gun rights.

The only exception would be someone convicted of fighting with their spouse (or equivalent) or children under R.C. 2917.11(A)(1), which qualifies as a Misdemeanor Crime of Domestic Violence and triggers the federal firearms disability.

As info, the requirements for a CHL are found here: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.125" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Offenses of violence for CHL qualification purposes are listed here: http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php? ... 58#p463558" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by Werz »

BobK wrote:The only exception would be someone convicted of fighting with their spouse (or equivalent) or children under R.C. 2917.11(A)(1), which qualifies as a Misdemeanor Crime of Domestic Violence and triggers the federal firearms disability.
I don't think even that qualifies. The use or attempted use of physical force against a family or household member must be an actual element of the offense. 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(33)(A)(ii).
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BobK
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by BobK »

Werz wrote:
BobK wrote:The only exception would be someone convicted of fighting with their spouse (or equivalent) or children under R.C. 2917.11(A)(1), which qualifies as a Misdemeanor Crime of Domestic Violence and triggers the federal firearms disability.
I don't think even that qualifies. The use or attempted use of physical force against a family or household member must be an actual element of the offense. 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(33)(A)(ii).
(A)(1) includes fighting, which I would regard as physical force.
(1) Engaging in fighting, in threatening harm to persons or property, or in violent or turbulent behavior;
As far as the OP is concerned, obviously domestic violence and fighting are both non-issues.
I am a: NRA Life Member, Texas State Rifle Association Life Member, Texas Firearms Coalition Gold member, OFCC Patron Member, former JFPO member (pre-SAF).

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More Obamination. Idiots. Can't we find an electable (R) for 2016?
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by Werz »

BobK wrote:
Werz wrote:
BobK wrote:The only exception would be someone convicted of fighting with their spouse (or equivalent) or children under R.C. 2917.11(A)(1), which qualifies as a Misdemeanor Crime of Domestic Violence and triggers the federal firearms disability.
I don't think even that qualifies. The use or attempted use of physical force against a family or household member must be an actual element of the offense. 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(33)(A)(ii).
(A)(1) includes fighting, which I would regard as physical force.
(1) Engaging in fighting, in threatening harm to persons or property, or in violent or turbulent behavior;
In my reading of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(33)(A)(ii), both the violent conduct and the familial relationship must be an element of the offense. Admittedly, the federal circuit courts are in disagreement over that interpretation. See accord, United States v. Hayes, 482 F.3d 749 (4th Cir. 2007); contra, United States v. Barnes, 295 F.3d 1354 (D.C. Cir. 2002). And both those cases have dissenting opinions. The Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals does not appear to have spoken specifically on that issue, but according to their recent interpretation of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(33)(A)(ii), I'm not even sure Ohio's domestic violence statute (R.C. 2919.25) would qualify. United States v. Castleman, Case No. 10-5912 (6th Cir., Sep. 19, 2012).

Basically, I think that being convicted under 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(9), based upon an underlying conviction of R.C. 2917.11(A)(1) involving a household member, is significantly less likely than winning the Ohio lottery.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by Cruiser »

Are we drifting?
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by Mustang380gal »

Cruiser wrote:Are we drifting?
Well, I think there is drifting, but it is interesting "listening" to two really intelligent guys argue politely.

It probably would be better to get back on track, though.
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Michael Porschien
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by Michael Porschien »

Agreed. And, on that note, I am currently finishing up the transcription of a Very interesting audio conversation between the officer that took my phone, John Payne, and a Captain Franklin Palmer, who was contacted by Payne after i was searched, but before my arrest. The audio is game-changing, to say the least, and i am working hard to get it all finished and accurate before i upload it. it will be up soon.

Thanks to the collective on recognizing and stopping a topic drift before we started to argue about vehicle code again. I will have new information uploaded shortly, to keep us on point.
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by Werz »

Michael Porschien wrote:Agreed. And, on that note, I am currently finishing up the transcription of a Very interesting audio conversation between the officer that took my phone, John Payne, and a Captain Franklin Palmer, who was contacted by Payne after i was searched, but before my arrest. The audio is game-changing, to say the least, and i am working hard to get it all finished and accurate before i upload it. it will be up soon.

Thanks to the collective on recognizing and stopping a topic drift before we started to argue about vehicle code again. I will have new information uploaded shortly, to keep us on point.
Transcripts are nice, but why not raw audio?

And I'm not sure what you mean by "vehicle code." The only person who mentioned anything from Title 45 was you. Maybe you just mean the law. If so, understand this: it's great fun to kick this around in the forums and talk about how "the cops are total meanieheads." But if you plan to avoid a conviction in this case, the only way that you will do it is under the law. Complaining that the cops are bad guys doesn't work in a real courtroom. Proving that the cops violated or circumvented the law is the only thing which will work there.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
Michael Porschien
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by Michael Porschien »

Werz wrote:
Michael Porschien wrote:Agreed. And, on that note, I am currently finishing up the transcription of a Very interesting audio conversation between the officer that took my phone, John Payne, and a Captain Franklin Palmer, who was contacted by Payne after i was searched, but before my arrest. The audio is game-changing, to say the least, and i am working hard to get it all finished and accurate before i upload it. it will be up soon.

Thanks to the collective on recognizing and stopping a topic drift before we started to argue about vehicle code again. I will have new information uploaded shortly, to keep us on point.
Transcripts are nice, but why not raw audio?

And I'm not sure what you mean by "vehicle code." The only person who mentioned anything from Title 45 was you. Maybe you just mean the law. If so, understand this: it's great fun to kick this around in the forums and talk about how "the cops are total meanieheads." But if you plan to avoid a conviction in this case, the only way that you will do it is under the law. Complaining that the cops are bad guys doesn't work in a real courtroom. Proving that the cops violated or circumvented the law is the only thing which will work there.
When i said transcription, i did mean audio as well as accompanying written words. Youtube will not accept audio-only files, so rather than make a black screen video, i decided to write out the words as well, and put them in the video so people could read along.

The vehicle code tangent i mentioned occurred on a different OFCC thread, which was part of the reason i asked and was given permission to create this new thread. By bringing it up again, i wanted to restate my desire to keep this thread on topic, with minimal drifting. I guess I did not do this effectively enough the first time, hence this post.
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by BB62 »

If I read the OP's mind correctly, this thread has multiple purposes: 1) to more fully describe, in one place, the totality of his stop, 2) not to dissect whether or not the knife is a "weapon" - which has a thread of its own, and 3) to point out the idiocy of the notion that "cooperation is better than challenging".

Although Mr. Porschien didn't say so directly, I feel he is just the most recent victim of ineffective/nonexistent efforts of gun "rights" organizations to greatly mitigate/put a stop to encounters like his.

While Mr. Porschien seems to have, through his lawyer, his defense in order, IMHO the issue that once again comes to the fore is a) what can/should we do to put the heat on the city/prosecutor, and b) what can/should we and gun "rights" organizations do to respond to/to put an end to the attitude of police officers/departments that OC is reason for a stop or the starting point for a search for criminal charges.

As to the notion that "cooperation is better than challenging" - there is no one-size-fits all approach when you have mitigating circumstances. The problem goes back to what I just said - at the core of incidents like Mr. Porschien's is the willingness of ignorant/biased LEOs to enforce, via intimidation or actual charges, a policy of "open carry will not be tolerated here". Unless and until this issue is dealt with in a different and continuous manner, by individuals and by Ohio's gun "rights" organizations, there will continue to be more victims. To that end, there is no riskless or low-risk response to an inquisitive police officer when he/she has agenda.

By the way, it's clear to me that YPD is both ignorant AND determined to intimidate.

As for myself, I will be getting the contact info for the Chief and the County Prosecutor, and writing a letters/records request. This stuff needs to stop.

Michael? Anyone?
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Michael Porschien
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by Michael Porschien »

BB62 wrote:If I read the OP's mind correctly, this thread has multiple purposes: 1) to more fully describe, in one place, the totality of his stop, 2) not to dissect whether or not the knife is a "weapon" - which has a thread of its own, and 3) to point out the idiocy of the notion that "cooperation is better than challenging".
I could kiss you for so completely and efficiently describing the totality of the situation. The third point in particular, about how any argument saying cooperation or conflict is superior, is null and void when the larger issue, the police harassment and bias, is likely to continue regardless of whether you do one or another.

BB62 wrote:While Mr. Porschien seems to have, through his lawyer, his defense in order, IMHO the issue that once again comes to the fore is a) what can/should we do to put the heat on the city/prosecutor, and b) what can/should we and gun "rights" organizations do to respond to/to put an end to the attitude of police officers/departments that OC is reason for a stop or the starting point for a search for criminal charges.
This is a Very big question, one definitely worthy of a separate thread in which ideas or actions are tossed around, but i think one that it is an extremely important topic to discuss. That being said, perhaps the first action the collective "we" can take is to give this very important idea a thread of its own to discuss it, to avoid breaking away from the topic at hand. If anyone has ideas on action that satisfies the question above as it relates to my case, i more than welcome them here, but i can see a hurricane of debates being started as ideas are tossed around, discarded, or put on shelves over such a large topic.
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by Michael Porschien »

The raw audio from the dispatch call is up, along with the transcription following along in the video. I really do not think that it needs any introduction, so i will let it speak for itself. take a look, and tell me what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d9nkddL ... e=youtu.be" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: details, audio, and questions regarding my open carry ca

Post by JediSkipdogg »

Michael Porschien wrote:1: The arrest time as noted at the top of the report is off by approximately 20 minutes. i can prove this with the headers on the audio i received from dispatch. (They will be up soon, i promise!)
Irrelavant IMO. 20 minutes is close enough. If you are talking hours or days then it may be an issue. I recently accidentally notarized a criminal complaint and put the wrong month on it. It was brought up in discovery and attempted to be dismissed on that cause. I told the prosecutor it was an accident. She said that was fine and the motion was denied.
Michael Porschien wrote:2: The report mentions that i pulled out my phone, but not that it was taken from me. Why does anyone think that is? i can't figure out why they would record half of the story, especially a story that ends so badly for them.
They are never going to admit in a report their flaws. That would just be a nightmare for them with the prosecution. At least now, the prosecutor doesn't know the nonsense occurred and can wait till a trial for it to be brought out.
Michael Porschien wrote:3: The report says that i was on the sidewalk, yet they charge me with walking in a roadway. Also, note that in the video, no mention of the sidewalk was evident. I was never asked a question about crossing the street, nor was my movement in any question at all, until i was formally charged.
If that is true, and you never stepped foot in the roadway, that should be easy to drop. They need to prove you did so it may be a tough one as judges will generally weigh officer testimony vs defendant testimony at 51/49. They need the jaywalking as probable cause for the stop since the open carrying alone is not enough.
Michael Porschien wrote:4: The report does not give a reason for the search. Officer safety could presumably be a potential, if sketchy, reason to temporarily take the gun, but not to lock it in a car and certainly not for a further search of my person.
The search is a stop and frisk from a Terry stop. Once stopped they can frisk you for any weapons. They don't have to say it's for officer safety, but that's what it is for. I rarely see in reports "A search was conducted for officer safety." It's one of those automatic items once a person is stopped. Same with taking the weapon and locking it in the car for the duration of the stop. Again, officer safety comes into play.



This officer is playing a huge fishing game and hopefully your attorney can get the first officer on the stand to testify against everything the second officer says. Seems the second officer was out of line. Sadly, not the first time I've seen something like this occur.
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