Wayne County Fair (on county owned land) Posted...

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Re: Wayne County Fair (on county owned land) Posted...

Postby Rhino » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:23 pm

Werz wrote:
Rhino wrote:Montgomery County fairgrounds are posted too. I worked there during the county fair a couple of weeks ago. I never even noticed the signs. Somebody else told me about them. I was carrying at the time. I told the person that informed me about the signs that they weren't legal. He said they were because the fairground was owned by a private association, the Montgomery County Agricultural Society. So I called up the Montgomery county property records web site. It's owned by the Montgomery County Agricultural Society alright, but the land use description says, "E - EXEMPT PROPERTY OWNED BY COUNTIES". There's actually more than one parcel. Some of the smaller ones belong to Metroparks. It's not privately owned. They're in violation of ORC 9.68. I kept carrying. The guy I was talking to works in the county juvenile detention center and knows the cops very well. He said they'd arrest someone if they knew they were carrying, and they don't give a crap about ORC 9.68 or about who lost a lawsuit before. They fully intend to ban guns until they lose a lawsuit themselves.

I may produce an all-purpose legal memorandum which clearly establishes that county agricultural societies are not private entities for the purpose of firearms prohibitions. I was going to do one for the benefit of the Wayne County Fair Board, but they responded so immediately to the advice in the prosecuting attorney's email that it was not necessary. However, it may be beneficial to get the prevailing law out to all the counties.

It probably won't do much good this year, and I don't have the time right now, anyway, but it's something which could be available for next year.

I'd be very interested in a copy when you find the time. Thanks.
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Re: Wayne County Fair (on county owned land) Posted...

Postby dynamike » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:49 pm

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
dynamike wrote:The police did not violate his civil rights, IMO. They told him guns were not allowed and allowed him to make his own choice.


I disagree because even if they didn't say "we'll arrest you if you enter" that's the obvious implied threat. Freedom of Association is a fundamental right protected by the First Amendment (as has been held by the Supreme Court). When armed police officers tell you you aren't allowed somewhere that you are in fact legally allowed to be, they've violated your fundamental right to associate.


Precedent cases.

Just because I said didn't agree doesn't mean my morality compass is pointing in that same direction.
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Re: Wayne County Fair (on county owned land) Posted...

Postby JmE » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:24 pm

Rhino wrote:So I called up the Montgomery county property records web site. It's owned by the Montgomery County Agricultural Society alright, but the land use description says, "E - EXEMPT PROPERTY OWNED BY COUNTIES". There's actually more than one parcel.

The ORC specifically singles out county AG societies as tax exempt. Ours owns multiple parcels here but not the fairgrounds proper. However, I agree that they are political subdivision. Their board of directors' meetings are subject to open meeting laws, the county can issue bonds for their group, the school district is an honorary member per ORC, and a whole host of other things that clearly demonstrate that they are not simply a private entity.

I can give cites later on anything someone might want but am running late for an appointment.
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Re: Wayne County Fair (on county owned land) Posted...

Postby JmE » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:27 pm

Werz wrote:I may produce an all-purpose legal memorandum which clearly establishes that county agricultural societies are not private entities for the purpose of firearms prohibitions. I was going to do one for the benefit of the Wayne County Fair Board, but they responded so immediately to the advice in the prosecuting attorney's email that it was not necessary. However, it may be beneficial to get the prevailing law out to all the counties.

It probably won't do much good this year, and I don't have the time right now, anyway, but it's something which could be available for next year.


Werz... buddy... I could really use anything like that for the Highland County Commissioners' meeting. I'm on the agenda September 19th at 9:45am. It doesn't have to be a memorandum; it can just be a list of cites and summaries to work into the brief presentation.
Then, Sir, we will give them the bayonet! - Gen.Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson
It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it. - Gen. Robert E. Lee
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Moreover, were he to return there, wouldn't he be rather bad at their game, no longer being accustomed to the darkness? - Plato
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Re: Wayne County Fair (on county owned land) Posted...

Postby cashman966 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:08 am

JmE wrote:
Werz wrote:I may produce an all-purpose legal memorandum which clearly establishes that county agricultural societies are not private entities for the purpose of firearms prohibitions. I was going to do one for the benefit of the Wayne County Fair Board, but they responded so immediately to the advice in the prosecuting attorney's email that it was not necessary. However, it may be beneficial to get the prevailing law out to all the counties.

It probably won't do much good this year, and I don't have the time right now, anyway, but it's something which could be available for next year.


Werz... buddy... I could really use anything like that for the Highland County Commissioners' meeting. I'm on the agenda September 19th at 9:45am. It doesn't have to be a memorandum; it can just be a list of cites and summaries to work into the brief presentation.


Just present the Supreme Court of Ohio's ruling in Greene Cty. Agricultural Soc. v. Liming,

Since R.C. Chapter 2744 deals with Political Subdivision Tort Liability, the first question we must answer is whether the Society, as a county agricultural society, is a “political subdivision.” ......

We hold that a county agricultural society is a political subdivision pursuant to R.C. 2744.01(F)
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Re: Wayne County Fair (on county owned land) Posted...

Postby Werz » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:49 am

cashman966 wrote:
JmE wrote:
Werz wrote:I may produce an all-purpose legal memorandum which clearly establishes that county agricultural societies are not private entities for the purpose of firearms prohibitions. I was going to do one for the benefit of the Wayne County Fair Board, but they responded so immediately to the advice in the prosecuting attorney's email that it was not necessary. However, it may be beneficial to get the prevailing law out to all the counties.

It probably won't do much good this year, and I don't have the time right now, anyway, but it's something which could be available for next year.


Werz... buddy... I could really use anything like that for the Highland County Commissioners' meeting. I'm on the agenda September 19th at 9:45am. It doesn't have to be a memorandum; it can just be a list of cites and summaries to work into the brief presentation.


Just present the Supreme Court of Ohio's ruling in Greene Cty. Agricultural Soc. v. Liming,

Since R.C. Chapter 2744 deals with Political Subdivision Tort Liability, the first question we must answer is whether the Society, as a county agricultural society, is a “political subdivision.” ......

We hold that a county agricultural society is a political subdivision pursuant to R.C. 2744.01(F)

That's the strongest opinion, but it does limit the holding to tort liability, which is not the same as saying "for all purposes." If I do a memorandum, I want to expand the analysis of the courts and the attorney general to issues beyond lawsuits relevant to hog judging.
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Re: Wayne County Fair (on county owned land) Posted...

Postby Rhino » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:53 am

cashman966 wrote:Just present the Supreme Court of Ohio's ruling in Greene Cty. Agricultural Soc. v. Liming,

Since R.C. Chapter 2744 deals with Political Subdivision Tort Liability, the first question we must answer is whether the Society, as a county agricultural society, is a “political subdivision.” ......

We hold that a county agricultural society is a political subdivision pursuant to R.C. 2744.01(F)

According to what I was told, and assuming it's true, Montgomery County doesn't care who else was sued. Of course, that's a big assumption, and it may be on the part of the Sheriff's department rather than on the part of the county prosecutor. I have no idea. I'm not exactly anxious to be the test case.

That ruling, and RC 2744.01, are limited to tort liability. Can they be stretched to include firearms preemption?
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Re: Wayne County Fair (on county owned land) Posted...

Postby BB62 » Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:34 pm

Werz wrote:
cashman966 wrote:Just present the Supreme Court of Ohio's ruling in Greene Cty. Agricultural Soc. v. Liming,

Since R.C. Chapter 2744 deals with Political Subdivision Tort Liability, the first question we must answer is whether the Society, as a county agricultural society, is a “political subdivision.” ......

We hold that a county agricultural society is a political subdivision pursuant to R.C. 2744.01(F)

That's the strongest opinion, but it does limit the holding to tort liability, which is not the same as saying "for all purposes." If I do a memorandum, I want to expand the analysis of the courts and the attorney general to issues beyond lawsuits relevant to hog judging.

Did you ever have a chance to pen a memorandum?
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