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[jamie9mm]

I think this is the correct sub forum but mods move to Ohio isssues and politics if needed.

Sign 1=http://sn101w.snt101.mail.live.com/mail/InboxLight.aspx?n=1381727800#(copy and paste it)

Sign 2= I'm unable to find the picture but it's much worse. It states that pepole with valid OLTCACHG will do so in a concealed manner only. Failure to do so will cause arrest.

Ok so on 4/22/10 I emailed the parks info line about sign one. My email was short and simple, WTF. A month and some day's later I had no response and came upon sign number two which was appauling to say the least. after seeing the seconed sign I fired off a nother email and was not nearly as nice. I more less told them they can't enforce that rule and would be subject to civil action if they did try to enfore it. Now almost two months lateri got an email, here's what i got back.
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Response to Info Line Request--Weapon Signage in Metro Parks‏
From: Peck, Larry- deleted emai address.
You may not know this sender.Mark as safe|Mark as junk
Sent: Wed 6/30/10 8:08 AM
To: delete my info
Cc: Info (Info@MetroParks.net)

June 30, 2010

Jamie--I apologize for the delay in responding to your emails. We appreciate your interest in Metro Parks and the time it took to contact us--feedback from our visitors is important as we evaluate our facilities and programs. I also understand your thoughts on the posting of signs and the park rules relative to the carrying of weapons in the Metro Park System. We will respectfully disagree with your assessment and analysis of the situation. There are two distinctive issues that will be discussed--implementation of the Ohio Revised Code relative to concealed carry and "open carry" of weapons.

Our signage is consistent with the Ohio Revised Code sections pertaining to concealed carry permits. Actually, our program is a little more flexible than it could be as we have allowed concealed carry in our remote restroom buildings and in open air shelters which are "government buildings" where a ban on concealed carry is permitted. We feel that banning concealed carry in the remote restrooms and open air shelters did not make much sense and thus those with concealed carry permits legally may carry firearms in a concealed manner throughout the Metro Parks except in buildings that are signed as such--we believe this is consistent with state law.

Relative to the issue of "open carry", Metro Parks has a long standing rule and regulation (Rule 3.0) prohibiting "carry" or "discharge" or "otherwise use" of firearms, explosive devices, knives, slingshots, boomerangs, and any other number of dangerous weapons. Exemptions are granted for authorized employees, law enforcement officers, hunters, and for specifically permited education or cultural programs. This rule also implements the concealed carry program consistent with state law.

Our goal which I am sure you support is to have safe, clean, well-maintained parks that can be enjoyed by a broad-based public here in Central Ohio. It is our position that the recent legislation adopted by the General Assembly including provisions that superseded local ordinances, laws, and rules was specific to the issue of concealed carry with the proper permit and our rule allows concealed carry consistent with the provisions enacted by the General Assembly. Concealed carry permit holders are required to successfully complete training, undergo a background check, etc. whereas there is not such a requirement for "open carry" that I am aware of. Therefore, if we allowed open carry, anybody and everybody would be able to carry weapons of all description (swords/spears/cross bows/assault rifles) regardless of their competency in safe and proper use of the weapons. It is hard to imagine how that would make our parks attractive places for many of our current and future users to attend as we serve many different people from many walks of life including those who don't feel the need to carry weapons during a picnic at the park. There would be nothing to prevent street gang members who were not convicted felons from being in our parks and openly displaying a wide variety of weapons including legal firearms--how that would be good public policy is not clear to me.

In summary, we feel our signage and rules are consistent with state law. We just completed a process of updating some of our rules and they are currently being reviewed by a panel of Franklin County Municipal Judges. Part of the review is to make sure the rules adopted by the Board of Park Commissioners are consistent with state and federal law and are within the legal authority of the Board. When we updated the weapons rule to be consistent with the newly enacted concealed carry law, the judges panel approved the rule.Our rangers will continue to enforce the Ohio Revised Code and our rules and regulations and certainly will not "hassle" law abiding visitors. We continue to monitor the situation and will also be reviewing the decision from the US Supreme Court issued earlier this week to see how it might apply to our rules and signage.

Larry Peck
Deputy Director.
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Ok so what next? Are they saying hey we can ban OC and wil do so? I think so. Or are they coming off as seemingly minor pro gun and just don't want to be bothered with OC? I could use some input fella's. My goal is to have the sign removed and the rangers understand they can't do sqaut about me Ocing with my dog and kids on a nice sunny day.

BTW I switched phones and think that's how I lost the picture of the seconed sign. I'll go get another one in a day or so.

One more thing! NO need for the OC haters to chime in! This isn't about which method is better or worse. you have a goverment agency trying to prohibit what they can't. I'm asking for for relative input only. Thanks.

[Sevens]

I have no input, but you need to edit out all the e-mail addresses and personal contact info from the post. They cause havoc with web bots that try to harvest them.

[dan dan the XD40 man]

For starters, he is incorrect in his opinion that "remote restrooms" and "open air shelters" being .gov buildings. They fail to fit the requirements of a .gov building. So he's wrong there.

Secondly, open carrying a firearm isnt necessarily "using" the firearm, so I think that blows his Rule 3.0 out of the water.

As far as the outright ban on OC, I dunno, maybe they can do that. Maybe someone who has some background with these dealing, like Charben, can answer that, even if only 5% of us are affected by it.

[nu3gawhat]

As towards the restroom and shelter..

(9) The officer of this state or of a political subdivision of this state, or the officer’s designee, who has charge of a building that is a government facility of this state or the political subdivision of this state, as defined in section 2923.126 of the Revised Code, and that is not a building that is used primarily as a shelter, restroom, parking facility for motor vehicles, or rest facility and is not a courthouse or other building or structure in which a courtroom is located that is subject to division (B)(3) of that section.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.1212

Then I'm pretty sure that there's not a State law banning open carry in parks, which I believe would mean they have no authority to do so...... IANAL


This is from a PDF on their website for Rules and Regulations.

3.0 Firearms or Other Dangerous Weapons

No Person except duly authorized Metro Parks employees, law enforcement officers, or
Persons engaged in hunting in accordance with Rules 10.1, 10.2 and 10.3 shall carry or
discharge or otherwise use a firearm of any description, explosive substance, firework, air or
gas gun, bow, crossbow, or other missile throwing device, pistol, switchblade or hunting
knife, dagger, metal knuckles, slingshot, boomerang or other dangerous weapon within the
Park, except that firearms or weapons may be permitted for the purpose of educational or
cultural programs through the issuance of a special permit by the Executive Director. Persons
possessing a valid license issued under ORC 2923.125 or ORC 2923.1213 may carry a
concealed firearm within the Park except inside any government building located on the
Park, and subject to any other restrictions imposed by law. Under no circumstances shall a
Person so licensed carry such a weapon other than in a concealed manner. When approached
by a ranger or other law enforcement officer for a law enforcement purpose, said Person shall
immediately notify the ranger or other law enforcement officer that he possesses a valid
concealed carry permit and is also carrying a concealed firearm. Said Person shall cooperate
and follow instructions provided by the ranger and other law enforcement officers.

http://www.metroparks.net/UserUploads/U ... 080104.pdf

[Jim-in-Toledo]

9.68 Right to bear arms - challenge to law.
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/gp9.68

(A) The individual right to keep and bear arms, being a fundamental individual right that predates the United States Constitution and Ohio Constitution, and being a constitutionally protected right in every part of Ohio, the general assembly finds the need to provide uniform laws throughout the state regulating the ownership, possession, purchase, other acquisition, transport, storage, carrying, sale, or other transfer of firearms, their components, and their ammunition. Except as specifically provided by the United States Constitution, Ohio Constitution, state law, or federal law, a person, without further license, permission, restriction, delay, or process, may own, possess, purchase, sell, transfer, transport, store, or keep any firearm, part of a firearm, its components, and its ammunition.

..snip..

(C) As used in this section:

(1) The possession, transporting, or carrying of firearms, their components, or their ammunition include, but are not limited to, the possession, transporting, or carrying, openly or concealed on a person’s person or concealed ready at hand, of firearms, their components, or their ammunition.

..snip..

[nu3gawhat]

Our signage is consistent with the Ohio Revised Code sections pertaining to concealed carry permits. Actually, our program is a little more flexible than it could be as we have allowed concealed carry in our remote restroom buildings and in open air shelters which are "government buildings" where a ban on concealed carry is permitted. We feel that banning concealed carry in the remote restrooms and open air shelters did not make much sense and thus those with concealed carry permits legally may carry firearms in a concealed manner throughout the Metro Parks except in buildings that are signed as such--we believe this is consistent with state law.

I'm a little peeved by this....Like they did it out of the kindness of their hearts and not the law. In which they wrongly state they could ban concealed carry in a restroom or shelter if they wanted to. Government buildings aren't optional postings, they are enumerated CPZ's. The restrooms/shelters exemptions were added in Sub. Senate Bill 184 . http://www.legislature.state.oh.us/bill ... 127_SB_184

2923.126 Duties of licensed individual.

(B) A valid license issued under section 2923.125 or 2923.1213 of the Revised Code does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun in any manner prohibited under division (B) of section 2923.12 of the Revised Code or in any manner prohibited under section 2923.16 of the Revised Code. A valid license does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun into any of the following places:

(9) Any building that is a government facility of this state or a political subdivision of this state and that is not a building that is used primarily as a shelter, restroom, parking facility for motor vehicles, or rest facility and is not a courthouse or other building or structure in which a courtroom is located that is subject to division (B)(3) of this section;

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.126

[BobK]

Their interpretation of state law seems to be consistent with the position held in City of Cleveland vs State of Ohio, which is currently under being adjudicated by the Ohio Supreme Court.

That position states that the section of Ohio law that deals with concealed carry is state law, but 9.68 that deals with firearms in general is unconstitutional.

This battle with Metro Parks would be more effectively addressed after the Ohio Supreme Court rules for the State of Ohio. IMO, they won't budge on anything right now.

Obviously some of the positions he states above are clearly ridiculous. First, 9.68 doesn't address swords, battle pikes, maces, crossbows, etc, whereas it does address firearms. I believe they have the right to ban those weapons. Mixing the two issues together is senseless.

Second, it would not allow gang members to openly carry weapons because they are felons on parole anyway.

[pleasantguywhopacks]

Maybe a OC event in force to bring this one to a quick end is in order. Clearly the park pinhead is incorrect on CC law as well as OC law. We can kill two birds with one walk.

BTW OP your link only leads to a hotmail login and no picture.

[Chuck]

Which park, Jamie?

Sounds to me as if we need an open carry walk there, with advance notice to the authorities, perhaps, and everyone attending should have proper info, handouts if you will, showing we are legal.

Even though I seldom use any Metro Park, I'll be glad to walk OC with you if you wish.

[willbird]

I am simply amazed to read that they think they can ALLOW a practice which they feel is illegal under Ohio law (carrying in remote open air shelters and restrooms).

I to agree that they do not have the power to ban OC, or allow it either, only the legislature in Ohio has that power with state owned facilities.

Bill

[charben]

Holy CARP!

I think I need to make a phone call...I'm in the exact right mood! Stand by...

ETA: Sending an email first...

[dan dan the XD40 man]

Holy CARP!

I think I need to make a phone call...I'm in the exact right mood! Stand by...

ETA: Sending an email first...

[rottman43055]

Holy CARP!

I think I need to make a phone call...I'm in the exact right mood! Stand by...

ETA: Sending an email first...

I predict some signs will be coming down

[Morne]

Holy CARP!

I think I need to make a phone call...I'm in the exact right mood! Stand by...

ETA: Sending an email first...

I predict some signs will be coming down

Agreed!

Ya know, not everybody is a fan of charben. But one thing even his foes must concede, when he gets charged up over something stuff gets D-O-N-E.

[charben]

Ya know, not everybody is a fan of charben.

What? Really?