Invited into a CPZ

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Invited into a CPZ

Postby mpickles » Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:19 pm

I was standing just outside of a church in Proctorville this evening, speaking to a gentleman about where the Boy Scouts met, and he told me it was on the other side of the building. He invited me into the church but I stated that I would have to stop by my trunk first because I noticed the gunbuster sign on the door. He said, "No, you're fine, come on in. I'm head of security." I paused for a moment because I wasn't sure if it was a trap, that was when I noticed he was wearing that typical earbud over his ear and he repeated that it was okay for me to come in while I was carrying.

My question is, was this okay? I make it a point to stay on the right side of the law because it took so much for me to be able to exercise my rights I don't want to lose them, so I want to know how to handle this in the future. Thanks in advance.
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Re: Invited into a CPZ

Postby Sevens » Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:06 pm

Looks okay. Sounds okay. And you didn't post some horrendous end to the story to lead us to believe that it ended badly.

However...
No protection for you under the law. Or, at best, it's not possible to PROVE that you were invited unless you recorded the conversation.

As it was a "place of worship", it wasn't only the gun buster sign that made you not legal for carry, this is an enumerated off-limits zone for good folks who legally carry, this place is nearly perfect for bad people to wreak mayhem.

If you want to cover yourself, get it in writing. Next best? Audio or video recording.
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Re: Invited into a CPZ

Postby Brian D. » Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:08 pm

VERY gray area legally in my opinion. At least without giving you written permission. Even at that you're knowingly going past a sign that states NO.

Sevens stated the same thing more precisely right above me.
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Re: Invited into a CPZ

Postby 3FULLMAGS+1 » Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:03 pm

I'ts my understanding most churches don't post or even address the issue, as they are already off limits,but "this" church has made a stand on the issue and has posted, so I'd stay the heck out unless the church "authority" that decided to post, gave you permission to carry.
I'd wager the "security guy" is not the authority.
And getting audio or written permission from someone who's not in the position to grant permission, is......well, in my opinion.......worthless.
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Re: Invited into a CPZ

Postby docachna » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:31 am

You are still violating the law. A property owner can't confer upon you the privilege of violating state criminal law.
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Re: Invited into a CPZ

Postby mpickles » Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:53 am

Brian D. wrote:VERY gray area legally in my opinion. At least without giving you written permission. Even at that you're knowingly going past a sign that states NO.


This was my concern. Will keep it in mind in the future.
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Re: Invited into a CPZ

Postby JustaShooter » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:57 am

docachna wrote:You are still violating the law. A property owner can't confer upon you the privilege of violating state criminal law.

:?: I'm pretty sure they can when it comes to trespass since trespass is based on the offender *not* having permission, so if the property owner is the one that posted the property (denying permission to a group of people) they can give individual permission to whomever they desire. I can put up no hunting and no trespassing signs around my property and then give my friend permission to hunt my property. Same thing. In this case, the question is more about whether the head of security has the ability to give that permission - that's a different matter entirely.
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Re: Invited into a CPZ

Postby WestonDon » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:50 pm

To be absolutely certain of staying on the right side of the law stay out of that church. This is one area where the law is full of traps for the unwary. Others have mentioned some of them and here's another. Is there a school associated with this church? Are you sure?

If you decide to enter that church I'd say your exposure to legal trouble is greater by telling the gentleman you were armed than by just keeping quiet about your armed status.
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Re: Invited into a CPZ

Postby Pops Fun » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:54 pm

Hi
There was a funeral 2 years ago and I was asked to help out, there were 4 armed church security
people and a couple friends armed. A child had been killed and one spouse was supposedly getting out
of jail to come and no one knew if/what would happen. Relatives from both sides were there so there was a lot of tension.
Other than one small scuffle nothing happen.
There is armed security at all/most the church services and I had permission from the head of security.
I figured I was ok, no money involved. :)

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Re: Invited into a CPZ

Postby docachna » Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:18 pm

JustaShooter wrote:
docachna wrote:You are still violating the law. A property owner can't confer upon you the privilege of violating state criminal law.

:?: I'm pretty sure they can when it comes to trespass since trespass is based on the offender *not* having permission, so if the property owner is the one that posted the property (denying permission to a group of people) they can give individual permission to whomever they desire. I can put up no hunting and no trespassing signs around my property and then give my friend permission to hunt my property. Same thing. In this case, the question is more about whether the head of security has the ability to give that permission - that's a different matter entirely.


But your property is not a statutory CPZ. The church is. The legislature said so. I don't believe the statute has any exception for situations where a person in authority (and like you said, WHO even HAS the authority ??) give you a pass.

If I'm wrong, won't be the first time, but I've never seen any provision for it in the O.R.C.
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Re: Invited into a CPZ

Postby mreising » Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:45 pm

docachna wrote:
But your property is not a statutory CPZ. The church is. The legislature said so. I don't believe the statute has any exception for situations where a person in authority (and like you said, WHO even HAS the authority ??) give you a pass.

If I'm wrong, won't be the first time, but I've never seen any provision for it in the O.R.C.


Here it is: 2923.126 (B)(6) Any church, synagogue, mosque, or other place of worship, unless the church, synagogue, mosque, or other place of worship posts or permits otherwise;
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Re: Invited into a CPZ

Postby JustaShooter » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:21 pm

docachna wrote:
JustaShooter wrote:
docachna wrote:You are still violating the law. A property owner can't confer upon you the privilege of violating state criminal law.

:?: I'm pretty sure they can when it comes to trespass since trespass is based on the offender *not* having permission, so if the property owner is the one that posted the property (denying permission to a group of people) they can give individual permission to whomever they desire. I can put up no hunting and no trespassing signs around my property and then give my friend permission to hunt my property. Same thing. In this case, the question is more about whether the head of security has the ability to give that permission - that's a different matter entirely.


But your property is not a statutory CPZ. The church is. The legislature said so. I don't believe the statute has any exception for situations where a person in authority (and like you said, WHO even HAS the authority ??) give you a pass.

If I'm wrong, won't be the first time, but I've never seen any provision for it in the O.R.C.

mreising beat me to it but yes, a church can permit carry if they desire - so can school boards, BTW.
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Re: Invited into a CPZ

Postby docachna » Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:01 pm

.[/quote] mreising beat me to it but yes, a church can permit carry if they desire - so can school boards, BTW.[/quote]

It certainly provides that; I didn't go to the mountain first. :?

It does NOT solve the problems of: 1) determining who has authority to grant permission, and 2) proving you have such permission.
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Re: Invited into a CPZ

Postby JustaShooter » Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:37 pm

docachna wrote:It does NOT solve the problems of: 1) determining who has authority to grant permission, and 2) proving you have such permission.

Exactly why I said "In this case, the question is more about whether the head of security has the ability to give that permission - that's a different matter entirely."
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Re: Invited into a CPZ

Postby concreteguy » Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:01 pm

If you were there for a BSA scout meeting, you were violating BSA "Guide to Safe Scouting" rules.
Churches also have to be careful in calling people who are armed "security", when in fact they have not gone thru the proper legal training.
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