Is a house of hospitality a church

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Ole_grizzly
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Is a house of hospitality a church

Post by Ole_grizzly »

For the purposes of why I belong to ofcc, I was wondering if anyone knew anything about if a house of hospitality has the statutory no-carry provision (with permission able to be granted by the organization) that a typical church employs.

I'm mainly interested in this place, as I have begun to volunteer regularly. http://sainthermans.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It used to be a monastery but had to drop that designation when their abbot resigned because he was hoarding guns.
http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/12 ... ardin.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I doubt with that backdrop the board is going to give permission to carry. They are not posted, and as men's shelters tend to be, there are a large variety of people in and out of the house, as their main mission is a free community meal, every meal of the day, every day of the year. It seems to be a somewhat neutral area based on what services they offer and no one has said any thing's happened except for the occasional theft.

Never once felt unsafe, but as we all know every article depicting violence has the quote "nothing like that ever happens here" and I just want to know legal if I can carry or not.

Any help is appreciated.
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pirateguy191
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Re: Is a house of hospitality a church

Post by pirateguy191 »

If it's not classified as a church, I don't believe it would be statutory.
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JustaShooter
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Re: Is a house of hospitality a church

Post by JustaShooter »

I agree - if it isn't a "church ... or other place of worship" then it doesn't meet the statutory requirement, and as long as it isn't posted should be OK to carry.
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Re: Is a house of hospitality a church

Post by eye95 »

Who can legally designate a building as a "church"? Logically, that would be the people who use the building, either because they are the owners or the renters. If they say it is a church and make it known as a church, anyone visiting should accept it as a church.

What do the folks there say it is?
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pirateguy191
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Re: Is a house of hospitality a church

Post by pirateguy191 »

I don't believe I could hang a sign on my garage and legally deem it a church.
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Re: Is a house of hospitality a church

Post by TJW815 »

pirateguy191 wrote:I don't believe I could hang a sign on my garage and legally deem it a church.
I guess it depends on what you do in your garage sir. The term "church" is defined in ORC 5709.07(d)(1):
(1) "Church" means a fellowship of believers, congregation, society, corporation, convention, or association that is formed primarily or exclusively for religious purposes and that is not formed for the private profit of any person.
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Re: Is a house of hospitality a church

Post by SMMAssociates »

IMHO/IANAL, but "houses of worship" are not required to post. Like the old Class D foolishness (alcohol), we're supposed to know....

Meantime, I think you'd need a good lawyer if somebody called you on the issue - if a clergyman does much more there than sweep up, it's probably going to be a Church within the State's definition....

I expect that there is case law on this, though, but yes, you can post your garage, or stick a religious symbol on the front door and call it a Church. The IRS may object, but odds are nobody else would, and poof, you're a Church for us CHL holders....

I'm also of the opinion that a "Clergyman" is kinda vague in my opinion above. These days a proper donation to the right web site and you're a "Clergyman" in ways that are valid in many states.

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Re: Is a house of hospitality a church

Post by JustaShooter »

It isn't described as a church or other place of worship on their website - it is a men's shelter. I would carry there without a second thought.
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Ole_grizzly
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Re: Is a house of hospitality a church

Post by Ole_grizzly »

Thanks everyone. I did ask specifically and they don't consider themselves a church. They just got a new resident that is some kind of Russian orthodox priest that they call "father," but his involvement seems to be limited to eating vegetarian meals and sleeping. I know there's only two paid employees, the director who is not clergy, and their chef. They do have a small chapel where they have services a couple times a day, but it's not led by a priest/pastor. It's basically readings and prayers that they follow from a national program that recommends daily devotions.

If anyone lives in Cleveland, they also have a clothes pantry and are completely out of men's gloves and hats if you have a few to spare, they take clothing and food drop offs at all hours. They are directly next to the Franklin castle, near 41sr and Lorain.
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Re: Is a house of hospitality a church

Post by M-Quigley »

Ole_grizzly wrote:For the purposes of why I belong to ofcc, I was wondering if anyone knew anything about if a house of hospitality has the statutory no-carry provision (with permission able to be granted by the organization) that a typical church employs.

I'm mainly interested in this place, as I have begun to volunteer regularly. http://sainthermans.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It used to be a monastery but had to drop that designation when their abbot resigned because he was hoarding guns.
http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/12 ... ardin.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sorry if this is a little off topic, but in reference to the link, is there a law now in Ohio regarding so called hoarding of guns?
I realize there's more to the issue of the abbot other than his guns and ammo, but still. For example, if I had a neighbor with 80 guns and thousands of rounds of ammo, could someone potentially call the cops on him, without some other issue being present?
Ole_grizzly
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Re: Is a house of hospitality a church

Post by Ole_grizzly »

About it being illegal to hoard guns, not to my knowledge as long as they were legally acquired. According to the article I linked, he was asked to resign and eventually entered treatment. From talking to long time residents and volunteers, he was insanely controlling, harsh, and didn't endear himself to many people. I've heard many times things like "never would have been allowed to do that when the Abbott was here" and it would be something like a resident sitting in the dining room during meals or owning a cat. He forbid people from going upstairs, and then they knew why, because of all the firearms. This is the kind of place that currently locks up the knives in the kitchen between meals, so having that type of arsenal around people down on their luck unsecured wasn't a great idea.
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Re: Is a house of hospitality a church

Post by M-Quigley »

Ole_grizzly wrote:About it being illegal to hoard guns, not to my knowledge as long as they were legally acquired. According to the article I linked, he was asked to resign and eventually entered treatment. From talking to long time residents and volunteers, he was insanely controlling, harsh, and didn't endear himself to many people.

Sounds like a couple of bosses I used to work for.
Ole_grizzly wrote:I've heard many times things like "never would have been allowed to do that when the Abbott was here" and it would be something like a resident sitting in the dining room during meals or owning a cat.
Well, as a former landlord, I perfectly understand the problem with having animals in a place. As far as sitting in the dining room during meals, where else would you sit?
Ole_grizzly wrote:He forbid people from going upstairs, and then they knew why, because of all the firearms. This is the kind of place that currently locks up the knives in the kitchen between meals, so having that type of arsenal around people down on their luck unsecured wasn't a great idea.
Yeah, I can't imagine having that many guns, and then just saying to people "don't go there." How did this guy get the money to buy all this stuff? Was he using donation money meant to go for services to the poor?
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Re: Is a house of hospitality a church

Post by Ole_grizzly »

Yeah, I can't imagine having that many guns, and then just saying to people "don't go there." How did this guy get the money to buy all this stuff? Was he using donation money meant to go for services to the poor?
No one really knew that's been able to tell me. He was paid a salary, but there was a parent institution at that time that handled most of the funding.

I've been active for over a year now, and I am very impressed with how well the place is run, and how all donations/resources are put to good use, and there is so little religious sanctimony that it fits with what I would want to do. There's a prayer before meal, and daily chapel, but otherwise it's a very practical, organized place that does a tremendous amount to help people in need, whether they need a place to stay, bread, clothes, or a hot meal. I found it very hard to find a place that I felt used resources appropriately and wasn't in your face with religion (I am a strong christian, I just have no patience for weirdos and people that act and say things one way in one group, and then do something different elsewhere).

They are desperate for hats, coats, and gloves, if anyone has extra and can spare a trip to the near west side of cleveland, they will be put to good use. If anyone else is interested in learning more about volunteering, please PM me. Best thing I can say is they are grateful for what they get in terms of donations or volunteer time, and there is no pressure to always do more. Frankly that attitude encourages me to do more, rather than feel obligated or what not.
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Re: Is a house of hospitality a church

Post by M-Quigley »

Ole_grizzly wrote: (I am a strong christian, I just have no patience for weirdos and people that act and say things one way in one group, and then do something different elsewhere).
When I read this, for some reason I also thought of certain hypocritical anti gun police chiefs, politicians and celebrities. (guns okay for me or my security, but not for thee)
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Re: Is a house of hospitality a church

Post by packin'mom »

M-Quigley wrote:
Ole_grizzly wrote:For the purposes of why I belong to ofcc, I was wondering if anyone knew anything about if a house of hospitality has the statutory no-carry provision (with permission able to be granted by the organization) that a typical church employs.

I'm mainly interested in this place, as I have begun to volunteer regularly. http://sainthermans.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It used to be a monastery but had to drop that designation when their abbot resigned because he was hoarding guns.
http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/12 ... ardin.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sorry if this is a little off topic, but in reference to the link, is there a law now in Ohio regarding so called hoarding of guns?
I realize there's more to the issue of the abbot other than his guns and ammo, but still. For example, if I had a neighbor with 80 guns and thousands of rounds of ammo, could someone potentially call the cops on him, without some other issue being present?
The former Abbott had a mental disorder. There is much that the public never got to find out. Needless to say, the man had no business owning any type of guns.
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