Former school grounds?

pleasantguywhopacks · Post by **pleasantguywhopacks** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:03 pm

Similar to a lot of communities, one of our nearby towns is building a new high school so the old one will become then new elementary and the old one several blocks away, I assume, will close and be torn down or turned over to the town. Does anyone know how this works? If it's turned over, when is it no longer an enumerated CPZ?
If its torn down is it still school property and therefore a CPZ?
I ask because the community park borders it and the wife and I walk there several times a week and it would be nice if the CPZ status went bye bye.

Timmy44221 · Post by **Timmy44221** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:27 pm

Edit: Deleated my advice, because I wouldnt even have taken it.

jeffkirchner · Post by **jeffkirchner** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:25 pm

If the park is not on school property, you can carry there. The 1000 foot rule doesn't apply to CHL holders.

Cruiser · Post by **Cruiser** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:24 am

jeffkirchner wrote:If the park is not on school property, you can carry there. The 1000 foot rule doesn't apply to CHL holders.

or any other legal means of possession of a firearm.

Timmy44221 · Post by **Timmy44221** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:21 am

jeffkirchner wrote:If the park is not on school property, you can carry there. The 1000 foot rule doesn't apply to CHL holders.

This is actualy what I was gonna post, but I wasnt positive on that it was correct.

pleasantguywhopacks · Post by **pleasantguywhopacks** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:37 pm

If the school is torn down, I wonder if the actual lot it's self would still be a CPZ?

SMMAssociates · Post by **SMMAssociates** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:46 pm

pleasantguy:

If the school district still owns the property there could be a solid argument as to it being a CPZ.

However, if they're storing used sheep on the property, you likely would be able to go the other way....

Regards,

pleasantguywhopacks · Post by **pleasantguywhopacks** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:48 pm

jeffkirchner wrote:If the park is not on school property, you can carry there. The 1000 foot rule doesn't apply to CHL holders.

It's not on school property it just abuts it. The sign says community park. I carried my XD covered by my discreet carry vest on our walk tonight.

The funny thing about this park is while its a comuninty park the local townies hold peewee football practice and games there. The local school doesn't have a football program and they are trying to build up the kids and get one going sometime in the future. I can carry there with all the kids around but not at the next towns games held at the Highschool. Silly isn't it?

Post by **SeanC** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:57 am

I still think it's unconsitutional as impermissibly vague. No one knows what a "school function" is.

A statute is unconstitutionally vague if it either: (1) fails to ‘give the person of ordinary intelligence a reasonable opportunity to know what is prohibited’; or (2) fails to ‘provide explicit standards for those who apply [the law].'

See Grayned v. City of Rockford, 408 U.S. 104 (1972)

As the court explains:

It is a basic principle of due process that an enactment is void for vagueness if its prohibitions are not clearly defined. Vague laws offend several important values. First, because we assume that man is free to steer between lawful and unlawful conduct, we insist that laws give the person of ordinary intelligence a reasonable opportunity to know what is prohibited, so that he may act accordingly. Vague laws may trap the innocent by not providing fair warning. Second, if arbitrary and discriminatory enforcement is to be prevented, laws must provide explicit standards for those who apply them. A vague law impermissibly delegates basic policy matters to policemen, judges, and juries for resolution on an ad hoc and subjective basis, with the attendant dangers of arbitrary and discriminatory application. Third, but related, where a vague statute "abut upon sensitive areas of basic First Amendment freedoms," it "operates to inhibit the exercise of [those] freedoms." Uncertain meanings inevitably lead citizens to "‘steer far wider of the unlawful zone' . . . than if the boundaries of the forbidden areas were clearly marked.

I consider myself at least a person of ordinary intelligence, and I don't know what a school function is. Obviously, I know what some of them are, football games, etc., but in other regards, I can't say. If I'm at a museum and the school shows up for a field trip, is that a school function? There's something inherently wrong about the notion that my right to bear arms can be abrogated by a school's random decision to take a field trip to the place where I happen to be. If that's the case, there's an argument of overbreadth, too - but we'll save that for another time.

rickt · Post by **rickt** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:07 pm

SeanC wrote:There's something inherently wrong about the notion that my right to bear arms can be abrogated by a school's random decision to take a field trip to the place where I happen to be.

Maybe we are expected to give up all our rights to visit any venue where a school group might show up; no parks, museums, zoos, etc.

Sometimes when I ride my bike in the Metroparks, the trail goes through woods with very limited sight-lines. I can round a curve in the woods and suddenly find myself riding past a high school cross county team running past me in the opposite direction. As I ride past them, I am wondering if I am involuntarily in the midst of a "school activity".

Cruiser · Post by **Cruiser** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:40 pm

rickt wrote:
SeanC wrote:There's something inherently wrong about the notion that my right to bear arms can be abrogated by a school's random decision to take a field trip to the place where I happen to be.
Maybe we are expected to give up all our rights to visit any venue where a school group might show up; no parks, museums, zoos, etc.

Sometimes when I ride my bike in the Metroparks, the trail goes through woods with very limited sight-lines. I can round a curve in the woods and suddenly find myself riding past a high school cross county team running past me in the opposite direction. As I ride past them, I am wondering if I am involuntarily in the midst of a "school activity".

As I see it you were "unknowingly" part of a school activity. I wouldn't loose any sleep over it.

rickt · Post by **rickt** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:19 am

Cruiser wrote:As I see it you were "unknowingly" part of a school activity. I wouldn't loose any sleep over it.

Considering some of the news stories I've read over the years, all it takes is the right combination of cop and prosecutor to ruin anyone's day. Even if charges are eventually dismissed or one is found innocent, one is still minus thousands of dollars in attorney's fees.

I guess that just proves how screwed up our laws are that people have to worry about such things.

Cruiser · Post by **Cruiser** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:19 am

rickt wrote:
Cruiser wrote:As I see it you were "unknowingly" part of a school activity. I wouldn't loose any sleep over it.
Considering some of the news stories I've read over the years, all it takes is the right combination of cop and prosecutor to ruin anyone's day. Even if charges are eventually dismissed or one is found innocent, one is still minus thousands of dollars in attorney's fees.

I guess that just proves how screwed up our laws are that people have to worry about such things.

So, before you go on a ride on the bike trail you need to call the crosscountry coach and see what the teams schedule is.

pleasantguywhopacks · Post by **pleasantguywhopacks** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:27 am

I refuse to constantly be scanning for a bus load of kids to be milling about at a non CPZ restaurant, business or attraction that I happen to frequent. I am willing to be that test case if some rouge LEO and prosecutor try to push it. This smacks as mind reading and I am willing to give a top notch defense attorney money to nip this in the bud.

Redbear · Post by **Redbear** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:58 pm

Ohio Concealed Carry Handbook, page 15, last paragraph.

1000' Rule DOES APPLY to concealed carry permit holders.

Ohioans For Concealed Carry Discussion Forums

Former school grounds?

Former school grounds?

School zone 1000' rule.