OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition

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OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition

Postby liberty1743 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:11 pm

I've heard more than once that, for legal reasons, it is advisable to carry the same ammunition as local law enforcement. I'm not saying I agree or not, but does anyone know what ammunition Ohio State Highway Patrol or Columbus Division of Police use?
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Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition

Postby JediSkipdogg » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:18 am

I've never heard it stated that way (to carry what LE uses.)

What you don't want to do is carry those wacky rounds out there. The zombie killer or shrapnel splitting ammo. My opinion is to carry Speer Gold Dot or Federal HST (or similar line.) The reason being is that both of those rounds/brands are tried and tested. They are both rated at personal protection and not "killer" rounds. Remember, anything can be used against you in a court of law. Now, the odds of law enforcement or the court analyzing what is exactly in the gun are small. But it's always a possibility if you have a borderline bad shoot.
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Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition

Postby JustaShooter » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:37 am

Not sure what Ohio State Highway Patrol or Columbus Division of Police use, but I'm pretty sure my local sheriff department issues Winchester Ranger T-Series. Personally, although I've heard the suggestion of carrying what your local LEOs carry, I choose to carry the most effective personal defense ammo I can find. My research tells me that Federal HST and Speer Gold Dot (followed closely by Winchester Ranger T-Series) are the top tier so that's what I carry. I buy a 50-round box of one (usually HST) and run them all through my carry gun using each magazine I will use for carry, and if it runs them all flawlessly I buy another 50-round box and load up. If there are any ammo-related malfunctions I buy a box of the next and repeat the test. If it failed both brands, I'd be talking to the gun's manufacturer to see about returning it for service. (Never had to, but it could happen.)
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Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition

Postby Javelin Man » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:59 am

My first carry gun was a very light Kel-tec P11 so I went for a 115 gr. bullet in my ammo. Hornady XTP fed very well and had good ballistics. Now I carry Zombie from Hornady which is identical to Hornady Critical Defense (except it has yellow polymer center instead of red) and Hornady Critical Duty which is designed for LEO. Duty doesn't come in 115 gr so I'll continue with the Hornady that works in my particular pistol.
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Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition

Postby Brian D. » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:46 am

JediSkipdogg wrote:I've never heard it stated that way (to carry what LE uses.)


Gun writer/ trainer Massad Ayoob was the first one I remember suggesting this. He works with students all over the U.S., including some where gun ownership is frowned upon to begin with.
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Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition

Postby JediSkipdogg » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:08 am

Brian D. wrote:
JediSkipdogg wrote:I've never heard it stated that way (to carry what LE uses.)


Gun writer/ trainer Massad Ayoob was the first one I remember suggesting this. He works with students all over the U.S., including some where gun ownership is frowned upon to begin with.


I was waiting for someone to bring him up. I agree with a lot of his logic, but he seems to think every shooting is going to trial and you need an expert to testify on your handgun being a good personal protection weapon and the ammo in it is legit. He's also against carrying reloads, which I know many are, but if you have done it for decades, and have had no issues, I see nothing wrong with it. He looks at the extreme what could come in to play, and from my experience working in law enforcement and with the courts, I've never seen them heavily question the weapon, type of weapon used, or the ammo unless the shooting was really unjustified.
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Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition

Postby Brian D. » Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:39 pm

JediSkipdogg wrote:
Brian D. wrote:
JediSkipdogg wrote:I've never heard it stated that way (to carry what LE uses.)


Gun writer/ trainer Massad Ayoob was the first one I remember suggesting this. He works with students all over the U.S., including some where gun ownership is frowned upon to begin with.


I was waiting for someone to bring him up. I agree with a lot of his logic, but he seems to think every shooting is going to trial and you need an expert to testify on your handgun being a good personal protection weapon and the ammo in it is legit. He's also against carrying reloads, which I know many are, but if you have done it for decades, and have had no issues, I see nothing wrong with it. He looks at the extreme what could come in to play, and from my experience working in law enforcement and with the courts, I've never seen them heavily question the weapon, type of weapon used, or the ammo unless the shooting was really unjustified.


Yeah, that may generally* be the case here, and in the other "gun-friendly" states across the U.S. But, he works all over the country. One of Ayoob's books is titled "In the Gravest Extreme". He told me once that was also a sideways reference to the legal/civil aftermath of using lethal force, even if a shooting was justified.

* Cleveland, Youngstown, etc....let's just say if i ever have to physically defend myself with a firearm in Ohio, I hope it's not up that way.
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Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition

Postby djthomas » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:11 pm

Brian D. wrote:* Cleveland, Youngstown, etc....let's just say if i ever have to physically defend myself with a firearm in Ohio, I hope it's not up that way.

I've not seen a single case in Cuyahoga County (and I've followed many) where the charging decision or final outcome turned on the ammunition used.
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Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition

Postby Brian D. » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:16 pm

djthomas wrote:
Brian D. wrote:* Cleveland, Youngstown, etc....let's just say if i ever have to physically defend myself with a firearm in Ohio, I hope it's not up that way.

I've not seen a single case in Cuyahoga County (and I've followed many) where the charging decision or final outcome turned on the ammunition used.


We haven't had a prosecutor with a "-D" behind his/her name down here, forever. It's just a regional thing, DJT.
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Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition

Postby M-Quigley » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:36 am

djthomas wrote:
Brian D. wrote:* Cleveland, Youngstown, etc....let's just say if i ever have to physically defend myself with a firearm in Ohio, I hope it's not up that way.

I've not seen a single case in Cuyahoga County (and I've followed many) where the charging decision or final outcome turned on the ammunition used.


I haven't read everything he's written, but what I have seen doesn't suggest the charging decision or final outcomes of court cases turned on the ammo, it's just that the issue of ammo could potentially and has been brought up in court, even if unsuccessfully. For example, he mentioned a case where the prosecutor brought up the use of hollow point ammo in a (desperate ?) attempt to sway the minds of the jurors. It may or may not have had something to do with the mindset of the shooter, which can be an issue sometimes in court.

Opposing counsel was able to ask one of the LE witnesses during the trial what kind of ammo various area departments used. The prosecution initially objected to the question being asked, but since the prosecutor made an issue out of the ammo, the judge allowed the questioning. When the witness testified that the area agencies also used HP ammo, it took the wind out of the sails of that argument with the jurors. (if there was any to begin with) The verdict was not guilty. Since this case happened decades ago, I doubt it would be an issue today.

The main issue Mas Ayoob brought up about handloads had to do with so called "exemplar" rounds being available, so ballistic testing could properly detirmine probable distances to which the gun was fired, based on powder patterns.

Speaking of Mas Ayoob, he had a ND during a class this year.

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Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition

Postby willbird » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:23 am

Some of the issues may come up in civil court rather than criminal court. And Tort Reform stops a lot of stuff from ever going to civil court.

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Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition

Postby sd790 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:59 pm

JediSkipdogg wrote:I've never heard it stated that way (to carry what LE uses.)

What you don't want to do is carry those wacky rounds out there. The zombie killer or shrapnel splitting ammo. My opinion is to carry Speer Gold Dot or Federal HST (or similar line.) The reason being is that both of those rounds/brands are tried and tested. They are both rated at personal protection and not "killer" rounds. Remember, anything can be used against you in a court of law. Now, the odds of law enforcement or the court analyzing what is exactly in the gun are small. But it's always a possibility if you have a borderline bad shoot.


There is no such thing as a "good shoot" or "borderline bad shoot". All self defense uses of a firearm are "bad shoots".
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Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition

Postby Sevens » Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:32 am

A lot of terrific posts in this discussion but at the same you question Ayoob's motive for making an ammo related suggestion, you simply have to keep in mind that he travels all over the country to take part in trials as an expert witness.

It's not like he is saying "if you do THIS then xxx will happen", he is merely saying that when you are knee deep in to the situation, these are possibilities and here are the best methods to counter those possibilities.

He backs this up with tangible experience.

What he writes is not law and it isn't the final answer or a magic talisman, it's simply advice backed by heavily researched second person experience and often by first person experience.
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Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition

Postby Bruenor » Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:58 am

I've always looked at the recommendation of Massad Ayoob as, if you do certain things, it removes the ability for it to easily be used against you in court. Don't provide them with any rope to use against you, make them bring their own.
Most likely these scenarios mentioned will never happen to you in court, that you should have to worry about being accused of manufacturing your own special extra deadly ammo, modifying a firearm to make it shoot faster so it's mroe deadly or having a hair trigger so you accidentally shot someone, instead of intentionally defended yourself.
From that perspective, using an unmodified firearm, with factory ammunition the same as the LEO's use. It's going to be harder for someone to make a jury believe any of those choices are unreasonable. I don't want to have to pay a lawyer more money to defend the merits of my firearms modifications or my custom defensive loads, in front of a jury that most likely has no idea about firearms, firearms modifications, or reloading ammunition.

At least that's how I've always viewed at his recommendations.
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Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition

Postby Sevens » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:24 am

Exactly.

The other reason he leans against handloads for defensive use is that prosecutors tend to want to do ballistic testing on the gun and ammo used, and handloads are always going to be a home brew that is only as consistent as the guy pulling the press handle and any box of ammo has no agreed-upon standard, while a known factory ammo can simply be purchased and tested with reasonable expectation that you can replicate in a lab the event in question.

This specifically came up in a suicide case that was tried as a homicide when the deceased used handloads.

Never any magic answer, just attempts to stack things in your favor.
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