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under 21 handgun - storing in vehicle

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:17 am
by Bruenor
So technically this is not Concealed carry, but wasn't sure the best forum for this question.

Coworker tells me his son who is under 21 and no longer lives at home lets drop, that he recently purchased a 38 Special revolver from a co-worker. He is keeping it in his vehicle, I'm not sure the specifics but the handgun and ammo are seperated with one being in the glovebox the other in the trunk, I'm not sure which is in which location, but I would guess the unloaded firearm is in the glovebox. He is a resident of Ohio and did not move here from another state, and he is not a trained LEO. He believes this to all be legal, his parents on the other hand don't think it sounds quite right.

How would you advise someone in this situation ?

I'm familiar with 2923.21

2923.21 Improperly furnishing firearms to minor.
(A) No person shall do any of the following:
(1) Sell any firearm to a person who is under eighteen years of age;
(2) Subject to division (B) of this section, sell any handgun to a person who is under twenty-one years of age;
(3) Furnish any firearm to a person who is under eighteen years of age or, subject to division (B) of this section, furnish any handgun to a person who is under twenty-one years of age, except for lawful hunting, sporting, or educational purposes, including, but not limited to, instruction in firearms or handgun safety, care, handling, or marksmanship under the supervision or control of a responsible adult;


and thought that 2923.16 might apply since he is under 21 and for whatever reason has decided that in his car is where he wants to keep it.

2923.16 Improperly handling firearms in a motor vehicle.
(A) No person shall knowingly discharge a firearm while in or on a motor vehicle.

(B) No person shall knowingly transport or have a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle in such a manner that the firearm is accessible to the operator or any passenger without leaving the vehicle.

(C) No person shall knowingly transport or have a firearm in a motor vehicle, unless the person may lawfully possess that firearm under applicable law of this state or the United States, the firearm is unloaded, and the firearm is carried in one of the following ways:

(1) In a closed package, box, or case;

(2) In a compartment that can be reached only by leaving the vehicle;


What advice might you offer to your coworker to pass along to his son to keep him out of trouble.

I get that most people don't know the firearms laws, but we all know that ignorance is not a legal defence.

Thanks

Re: under 21 handgun - storing in vehicle

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 12:02 pm
by DontTreadOnMe
Technically neither federal nor Ohio law restricts possession of a handgun based on age. The restrictions are based on providing a handgun to someone else based on their age.

Does that sound like splitting hairs? Maybe, but the law is about what it says. I guess if a prosecutor wanted to work really really hard he could try to make a case for soliciting the other person to commit the violation of 2923.21, maybe. I find that really unlikely.

OTOH I find it very likely that if any LEO finds out about the gun he gets arrested based on the assumption that Ohio's law restricting sales = possession.

Re: under 21 handgun - storing in vehicle

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 12:11 pm
by Javelin Man
In any case, I wouldn't volunteer the informaiton to any LEO that I had a firearm in my car.

Re: under 21 handgun - storing in vehicle

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 12:20 pm
by djthomas
As noted it is not illegal for a person under 21 to possess a handgun in this state.

DTOM raises an interesting scenario. Let's say he is arrested and the prosecutor, or eventually, the court, looks at it and says uh, no, bad arrest. I don't know that any entity can return the firearm to him until he's 21 without themselves being guilty of improperly furnishing. There's no exception in the law for a LEO or a judge to furnish a firearm to an underaged person. The kid still has a title interest in his property so they might say they'll return it to a person over 21 of his choosing. All the under 21s I'm aware of committed some other offenses like slinging drugs or carrying loaded and the firearms were forfeit on those grounds, thus sidestepping the issue completely.

And for the record I don't think it's an automatic arrest situation. All the guys I know are pretty up to speed when it comes to the law and crap found on the road. Let's be honest, unless they're a day one rookie this isn't the first time they've come across someone under 21 with a handgun in their car. On the other hand they can lean on him pretty hard to name the person who did furnish it to him and since it's not a spouse there's no real fifth amendment right to refuse if called before a grand jury.

Re: under 21 handgun - storing in vehicle

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:19 pm
by rickt
Doesn't this also apply?

2923.211 Underage purchase of firearm or handgun.

(A) No person under eighteen years of age shall purchase or attempt to purchase a firearm.

(B) No person under twenty-one years of age shall purchase or attempt to purchase a handgun, provided that this division does not apply to the purchase or attempted purchase of a handgun by a person eighteen years of age or older and under twenty-one years of age if either of the following apply:

(1) The person is a law enforcement officer who is properly appointed or employed as a law enforcement officer and has received firearms training approved by the Ohio peace officer training council or equivalent firearms training.

(2) The person is an active or reserve member of the armed services of the United States or the Ohio national guard, or was honorably discharged from military service in the active or reserve armed services of the United States or the Ohio national guard, and the person has received firearms training from the armed services or the national guard or equivalent firearms training.

(C) Whoever violates division (A) of this section is guilty of underage purchase of a firearm, a delinquent act that would be a felony of the fourth degree if it could be committed by an adult. Whoever violates division (B) of this section is guilty of underage purchase of a handgun, a misdemeanor of the second degree.

Re: under 21 handgun - storing in vehicle

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 2:32 pm
by JediSkipdogg
rickt wrote:Doesn't this also apply?

2923.211 Underage purchase of firearm or handgun.

(A) No person under eighteen years of age shall purchase or attempt to purchase a firearm.

(B) No person under twenty-one years of age shall purchase or attempt to purchase a handgun, provided that this division does not apply to the purchase or attempted purchase of a handgun by a person eighteen years of age or older and under twenty-one years of age if either of the following apply:

(1) The person is a law enforcement officer who is properly appointed or employed as a law enforcement officer and has received firearms training approved by the Ohio peace officer training council or equivalent firearms training.

(2) The person is an active or reserve member of the armed services of the United States or the Ohio national guard, or was honorably discharged from military service in the active or reserve armed services of the United States or the Ohio national guard, and the person has received firearms training from the armed services or the national guard or equivalent firearms training.

(C) Whoever violates division (A) of this section is guilty of underage purchase of a firearm, a delinquent act that would be a felony of the fourth degree if it could be committed by an adult. Whoever violates division (B) of this section is guilty of underage purchase of a handgun, a misdemeanor of the second degree.


Still missing the words we are talking about. POSSESSION.

What you quoted simply talks about "purchase." However, furnishing for free is not purchasing and possessing is not purchasing. So the individual detained would have to speak and say he/she gave money/goods to purchase the firearm.

Re: under 21 handgun - storing in vehicle

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 3:05 pm
by rickt
It may not apply to possession during a traffic stop but aren't we ignoring the fact that the buyer and seller both committed a felony during the sale?

Re: under 21 handgun - storing in vehicle

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:50 pm
by djthomas
rickt wrote:It may not apply to possession during a traffic stop but aren't we ignoring the fact that the buyer and seller both committed a felony during the sale?

To be precise, the buyer committed a misdemeanor, presuming he's at least 18. But in any event, what's done is done. That bell can't be unrung ... neither getting rid of the gun nor turning 21 can change the underlying legalities of the sale. The fact remains though that the buyer's ongoing possession and storage in a motor vehicle (as described) is not illegal.

That said, an under 21 carrying a handgun in a car may attract unwanted attention should it be discovered. Tack on the possibility of our under 21 being an Internet road warrior with a law degree who know his rights ... to a point, and it becomes fun to watch when finds a cop who says "OK, I'll play ball."

Re: under 21 handgun - storing in vehicle

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 8:22 pm
by Cosmos
How about when the firearm is stolen before he turns 21? I believe filing a police report on a stolen firearm under his circumstances would be self-incrimination.

Re: under 21 handgun - storing in vehicle

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 8:30 pm
by JustaShooter
He broke the law when he bought it, his co-worker broke the law when he sold it to him. I believe any LEO would have RAS to detain him if it is found in his possession. My advice? Have dear ol' dad hold it for him until he turns 21.

Re: under 21 handgun - storing in vehicle

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 9:41 pm
by Qfac
How would this all work if a person 18-20 moved here from out of state and owned the handgun while a resident of another state? - say MI for example - where an 18-20 year old can legally obtain a purchase permit from the local sheriff and buy a handgun from a private seller. The said handgun sale is approved by law enforcement and registered with the State. The individual would have documents the he or she own it and obtained leagly in MI that they could produce once they live in Ohio.

Re: under 21 handgun - storing in vehicle

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:13 pm
by JediSkipdogg
JustaShooter wrote:He broke the law when he bought it, his co-worker broke the law when he sold it to him. I believe any LEO would have RAS to detain him if it is found in his possession. My advice? Have dear ol' dad hold it for him until he turns 21.


Sure, he broke the law when he bought it and the co-worker broke the law when he sold it, but what law is broken DURING THE TRAFFIC STOP OF POSSESSION? The police have no legal ability to detain someone for the mere possession if they did not witness or have evidence that an illegal sell or purchase took place. They can't arrest the 20 year old and then do an investigation into the matter. After all, what are they arresting him for?

Re: under 21 handgun - storing in vehicle

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:29 am
by Bruenor
Thanks for all the responses, not as bad as I thought it might be, since there doesn't seem to be a possession stipulation anywhere.
I'll tell his dad to at the very least to try and convince him his vehicle isn't the appropriate place to store it, and not just because of the age issue. Of course he and his brother are both over 18 now, and know everything, so I'm sure it's going to be a challenge for dad to try and convince him of anything.

Re: under 21 handgun - storing in vehicle

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:37 am
by JustaShooter
JediSkipdogg wrote:
JustaShooter wrote:He broke the law when he bought it, his co-worker broke the law when he sold it to him. I believe any LEO would have RAS to detain him if it is found in his possession. My advice? Have dear ol' dad hold it for him until he turns 21.


Sure, he broke the law when he bought it and the co-worker broke the law when he sold it, but what law is broken DURING THE TRAFFIC STOP OF POSSESSION? The police have no legal ability to detain someone for the mere possession if they did not witness or have evidence that an illegal sell or purchase took place. They can't arrest the 20 year old and then do an investigation into the matter. After all, what are they arresting him for?

And in the real world, when Officer Friendly realizes that the lad is under 21 and is in possession of a handgun, he will begin a seemingly innocuous conversation - you know something like "So how long have you lived in Ohio? All your life? Like it here? Yeah? By the way, nice handgun, what did it cost you? Sounds like a nice deal. What do you do for a living? Ever consider law enforcement? No? You are under arrest."

Re: under 21 handgun - storing in vehicle

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:38 am
by djthomas
JediSkipdogg wrote:Sure, he broke the law when he bought it and the co-worker broke the law when he sold it, but what law is broken DURING THE TRAFFIC STOP OF POSSESSION? The police have no legal ability to detain someone for the mere possession if they did not witness or have evidence that an illegal sell or purchase took place. They can't arrest the 20 year old and then do an investigation into the matter. After all, what are they arresting him for?

The bottom line is it's not per se illegal for a 20 year old to possess a handgun; there are legal avenues for them to come to possess or own one. Of course nothing stops an officer from asking a few questions during the process of addressing the underlying traffic violation, which if the kid is dumb enough to answer, could incriminate him and his co-worker.

To this point we've focused on traffic stops. But what about a different situation, let's say his car gets broken into and the gun is stolen. By law he must file a report. I know when we take stolen gun reports we gather as much information as we can, such as how long the person owned it, where they acquired it, etc. Those can sometimes be leads - e.g. if you bought it two weeks ago did someone see the sale who might have decided they wanted it for themselves? Again, is our 20 year old crafty enough to navigate the minefield of legal obligations with respect to reporting while simultaneously not admitting to any criminal offense? Or, that stolen gun gets used in a crime and traced back to the original owner and through that it winds up with the co-worker saying he sold it to the then-20 year old.

Last point - this gun is tainted. Even when he turns 21 it can't unring the bell of the illegal transfer. If there's ever reason to trace its lineage, i.e. stolen from him or a subsequent owner or used in a crime, others may admit the illegal sale on his behalf.