Need Help Armed Security Law

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Need Help Armed Security Law

Postby BillTheSlink » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:40 pm

I am in a pickle and in trouble. I am a security guard (unarmed) in a trailer park. We have this really bad dude who is making threats against my life, as I have been told by many residents. Last night this guy hid in the bushes near a swimming pool on the property apparently waiting for me as that is the only place I get out on foot. Fortunately for me some kids walked by his position and he was so drugged up he decided it would be fun to attack the kids with a knife and a ball bat instead of waiting on me. Thankfully they were faster than him and I found them screaming for help in an intersection. The cops raided the place today looking for him with dogs and everything trying to track him. I found out from the police this joker is public enemy number one in the county. When I told the cop about the threats he said he had heard about it and I needed to be real careful because he is crazy enough to do me in.

My problem is this: There is no time to get certified to carry as an armed guard and besides this the contract with my company states we are not to be armed security at any time. I am going to go file a police report Monday and try to get an emergency CCW issued. I know I would be in trouble if I did get caught on duty with just a CCW and not an armed security certificate, but I would rather much like to go on living. Can someone tell me how much time I would be looking at possibly for carrying concealed on duty as a security guard without an OPTA certificate.? I know if it came to light I would lose my job and will at least face something minor, but unless we're talking serious time here I am going to do it. I am not overly concerned with it being discovered if I don't have to shoot him or draw the weapon. We wear these black shirts with tactile pockets and I kid you not I put a Beretta 92 in there just now and although there was a bulge it didn't look like a hand gun print. It looked like a paper wad and something heavy pulling the shirt taught with weight. A police officer would probably notice but not someone not trained. I am only going to do this until they catch the guy. What is the max I am looking at?
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Re: Need Help Armed Security Law

Postby xxxamishxxx » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:21 am

Job isn't worth the hassle if you ask me. Either have your work transfer you or find another job. You now are knowing putting yourself in a situation that could end up with someone being injured.
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Re: Need Help Armed Security Law

Postby sd790 » Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:27 am

Quit your job.
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Re: Need Help Armed Security Law

Postby djthomas » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:12 am

Technically I believe you can carry a concealed handgun if you have a CHL because the section that requires armed security personnel to qualify specifically says that it does not prohibit a person with a CHL from carrying a concealed handgun. If I'm wrong on that violation of the private security rules is up to a year in jail and a $1,000 fine.

But forget that, it's irrelevant. As the others have said, walk away. Tell your boss you need a transfer to another site effective immediately or quit on the spot. Security jobs are a dime a dozen. Your life is not. If your boss has any concern for the well being of his employees or his company's liability he'll pull the job completely until this guy's gone.
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Re: Need Help Armed Security Law

Postby jeep45238 » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:34 am

BillTheSlink wrote:We have this really bad dude who is making threats against my life, as I have been told by many residents.
--------------
I found out from the police this joker is public enemy number one in the county. When I told the cop about the threats he said he had heard about it and I needed to be real careful because he is crazy enough to do me in.
--------------
I know if it came to light I would lose my job and will at least face something minor, but unless we're talking serious time here I am going to do it.


You win 100% of the fights you do not partake in.

Full stop, end of story.


Go to stupid places to interact with stupid people and you'll win stupid prizes.

You're willing to re-engage with a stupid person and knowingly go to a stupid place (their stomping grounds). It is not worth the stupid prize - tell your company that you will not go to that location due to legitimate, confirmed fear of your life. Even if you do happen to get into this situation and come out victorious, it still sucks big time to win (though not as much as loosing). The economic and social losses you will encounter if you are in an encounter (with the law or in a fight for your life) will have a greater toll than you think it will at this time.

Take 45 minutes and listen to the thoughts on this episode regarding the social/employment consequences - even if you don't have to deploy deadly force. They're insightful.
http://ballisticradio.com/2018/03/26/be ... 18th-2018/

Social implications begin to get discussed around 18 minutes, but I really suggest listening to the whole episode for full contextual impact.
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Re: Need Help Armed Security Law

Postby carmen fovozzo » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:29 pm

You win 100% of fights you do not partake in..

I LOVE THAT....going to use it often..
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Re: Need Help Armed Security Law

Postby jeep45238 » Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:08 pm

carmen fovozzo wrote:You win 100% of fights you do not partake in..

I LOVE THAT....going to use it often..


Another podcast with very relevant information. Again, I recommend listening to the entire episode, it's very comprehensive. The analysis of violence, outcomes, and social consequences are looked at in depth.

http://ballisticradio.com/2018/03/23/mi ... 11th-2018/

But for direct relevance with minimal context relevant to this thread, 23:30-26:05 and 27:15-28:35


Bill, you mentioned something about time in jail - keep in mind that any time in jail means you are NOT providing for you and yours, and potentially prevent this for the long term as well. That is not something to throw into the wind, regardless how long you think you might be behind bars. Not to mention the implications of being convicted of a crime with a firearm, and the implications that brings.

Don't do it.
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Re: Need Help Armed Security Law

Postby dademoss » Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:35 pm

jeep45238 wrote:You win 100% of the fights you do not partake in.

Go to stupid places to interact with stupid people and you'll win stupid prizes.


Please, do not play the stupid game, move on.
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Re: Need Help Armed Security Law

Postby M-Quigley » Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:56 pm

BillTheSlink wrote: Can someone tell me how much time I would be looking at possibly for carrying concealed on duty as a security guard without an OPTA certificate.? I know if it came to light I would lose my job and will at least face something minor, but unless we're talking serious time here I am going to do it. I am not overly concerned with it being discovered if I don't have to shoot him or draw the weapon.


I think that you're looking at it the wrong way. If the situation is serious enough that you feel you need to be armed with a firearm, then there is a chance that you might get into a situation where you have to draw or shoot the weapon. You should be looking at the worst case scenario, and not assume or merely hope you don't have to use the gun in some way. Also, if you're carrying against your employers wishes they could try to use that to cover their backside and not support you in a potential criminal case, which could potentially be anything up to murder.

I've worked both unarmed and armed security in the past (admittedly far past) but the few unarmed contracts I worked for didn't involve me physically interacting with potential criminals anyway. It was examples like I was in a secure building watching security cameras, calling 911 as needed for fire alarms and medical emergencies, logging in or out semi trucks and trailers, etc. If I were still working unarmed security I would do what others have suggested, that is I would go to my employer and tell them my concerns. If they assign me somewhere else, fine, if not, I'd quit that employer and go work for someone else. In fact that is what a couple of people that I worked with did when they first started with the agency I worked for, because their previous employer wanted to put them somewhere dangerous and be unarmed.
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Re: Need Help Armed Security Law

Postby djthomas » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:01 pm

M-Quigley wrote:I think that you're looking at it the wrong way. If the situation is serious enough that you feel you need to be armed with a firearm, then there is a chance that you might get into a situation where you have to draw or shoot the weapon.

I don't carry a firearm because I expect trouble; I carry because I don't expect trouble. If I do expect trouble I don't go.
M-Quigley wrote:You should be looking at the worst case scenario, and not assume or merely hope you don't have to use the gun in some way. Also, if you're carrying against your employers wishes they could try to use that to cover their backside and not support you in a potential criminal case, which could potentially be anything up to murder.

And while we're talking about the employment situation, I said security jobs are a dime a dozen and that's true if you don't get fired for cause. If you get fired for carrying on the job you're pretty much blacklisted with all the major providers - they absolutely talk to each other. Breaking rules like that won't be seen as being prudent or being the hero. It'll be seen as being a loose cannon full of liability exposure.

Of the private security firms I know I don't think any of them would fault somebody who walks in these circumstances, particularly if the current company refuses to remove you from the site. Hopefully you're at one of the good companies where once they're fully briefed on the situation they not only pull you but drop the account. A decent company won't hesitate to drop an account if it's unsafe for their employees and can't be made safe by a personnel substitution. Particularly over what I presume is a pretty chump change account.
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Re: Need Help Armed Security Law

Postby M-Quigley » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:18 pm

djthomas wrote:
M-Quigley wrote:I think that you're looking at it the wrong way. If the situation is serious enough that you feel you need to be armed with a firearm, then there is a chance that you might get into a situation where you have to draw or shoot the weapon.

I don't carry a firearm because I expect trouble; I carry because I don't expect trouble. If I do expect trouble I don't go.


I get what you're saying, and I agree with it. Sometimes though you don't even have to go somewhere to meet trouble, trouble comes to you. My point was that I've heard too many people over the years who have a potential situation where they consider getting a gun for protection, but then say things that make it appear that they haven't thought enough about the possibility, however remote, that they might actually have to use it in some way.
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Re: Need Help Armed Security Law

Postby jeep45238 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:26 am

M-Quigley wrote: then say things that make it appear that they haven't thought enough about the possibility, however remote, that they might actually have to use it in some way.



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Re: Need Help Armed Security Law

Postby ArmedAviator » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:06 am

sd790 wrote:Quit your job.


Exactly this. There's no job worth that level of risk. Especially one which prevents your own safety.
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Re: Need Help Armed Security Law

Postby M-Quigley » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:43 am

djthomas wrote: A decent company won't hesitate to drop an account if it's unsafe for their employees and can't be made safe by a personnel substitution. Particularly over what I presume is a pretty chump change account.


I would've thought that nowadyas even a company that wasn't decent would at least care about their potential for workman's cost increases. :(
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Re: Need Help Armed Security Law

Postby Brian D. » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:54 pm

M-Quigley wrote:
djthomas wrote: A decent company won't hesitate to drop an account if it's unsafe for their employees and can't be made safe by a personnel substitution. Particularly over what I presume is a pretty chump change account.


I would've thought that nowadyas even a company that wasn't decent would at least care about their potential for workman's cost increases. :(


I think a common attitude among such employers is along the lines of "We'll burn that bridge when we get there."
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