Question re: church carry

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Question re: church carry

Postby Buckeyedoc » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:16 pm

Ok, I know that if a pastor authorizes concealed carry in their church, it's ok. However, a few weeks back, we visit a new church. After the service, a member of the "security" team approached me and asked if I knew it was illegal to carry in their church. Our kids had attended their VBS this summer and I knew their "security" team carried concealed. Anywho, I asked if they were certified security guards, licensed in the state of Ohio. He said they weren't licensed. I asked him if they carry based on their CHL. He said they did. It is my understanding that with churches, it's all or nothing. The pastor can't allow certain people and prohibit others. Is this correct. I can't find anything stating one way or the other. I scheduled a meeting with the pastor to discuss this topic and would like to have some ground to stand on either way.
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Re: Question re: church carry

Postby Brian D. » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:31 pm

The church "authority" can allow/disallow however they wish, best I can decipher that part of the law. It's not particularly clear who that "authority" even is, from one church to another.
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Re: Question re: church carry

Postby M-Quigley » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:25 pm

Here's the ORC

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.126

A valid concealed handgun license does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun in any manner prohibited under division (B) of section 2923.12 of the Revised Code or in any manner prohibited under section 2923.16 of the Revised Code. A valid license does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun into any of the following places:


(6) Any church, synagogue, mosque, or other place of worship, unless the church, synagogue, mosque, or other place of worship posts or permits otherwise;


Obviously if a church specifically posts gun carrying is permitted, then it would reasonably apply to anyone. Does anyone know of any church that posts this however? I've never seen or heard of one yet.

As far as permits otherwise, IDK. It sounds like they already know somehow that you are or were carrying. I certainly wouldn't want to risk being charged by going somewhere I wasn't wanted, and didn't need to go to that particular place anyway. Too many other choices in life.

Here's a link that might be helpful. it would be best to read the whole thing, it's a short read. Here however is a few parts of it. You might be able to make the point to whoever that the churches liability might be less with just allowing anyone with a CHL to carry, rather than have a specific security force directed by the church leadership. (see the last line in the Volunteer security paragraph)

http://barneydebrosse.com/publications/ ... rticle.pdf

Ohio Revised Code 2923.126 provides that a licensee may not carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any place of worship unless such place of worship permits otherwise.

This seems straight forward enough; if the church permits it then you can carry. There are, however, a few issues that one must consider.

Who Has the Authority?
The most common question is if a standardized form exists that must be completed to allow for the carrying on church property. The answer is that no such form exists. The law simply states “unless the...place of worship posts or permits otherwise.” This is a fairly broad statement and it appears as long as there is some acknowledgement of the permission the licensee may carry. I often recommend that a licensee get something in writing if the church does not post in their bulletin or otherwise that such activity is permitted.

Volunteer Security Another commonly asked question is what liability the church is open to if they form a volunteer security force of licensees at the church. This is a complex question that would be based entirely on the facts. One should be aware of, at a minimum, that the Ohio Revised Code provides immunity to private employers if they allow licensees to carry on their premises. When addressing a volunteer security force a church is well advised to consult competent legal counsel to reduce the possibly liability as much as possible. Once the church begins to exert control over the activities of licensed concealed carry holders potential liability could increase.

Child Care
The most common road block I find is when a church has a day care facility on its
premises. Ohio Revised Code 2923.126 provides that a licensee may not carry into a child day
care center. If a church operates a day care they should consult competent legal counsel to investigate as to whether their day care operations prevent a licensee from carrying. The Ohio Revised Code does provide a definition of what constitutes a day
-care center and some church day cares may not meet the statutory definition.
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Re: Question re: church carry

Postby JustaShooter » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:54 pm

Brian D. wrote:The church "authority" can allow/disallow however they wish, best I can decipher that part of the law.

That's how I've always understood it as well.
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Re: Question re: church carry

Postby dustymedic » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:42 pm

Unless something's changed in past couple years, security guards in the state of Ohio are only licensed if they work for a contract agency ( like Pinkerton or such). If they are actual employees of the business they work, there is no licensing by the state.
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Re: Question re: church carry

Postby SMMAssociates » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:07 am

dustymedic wrote:Unless something's changed in past couple years, security guards in the state of Ohio are only licensed if they work for a contract agency ( like Pinkerton or such). If they are actual employees of the business they work, there is no licensing by the state.


dustymedic:

The zinger is that if the House of Worship actively supports (even if they are volunteers) carriers, there could be liability concerns if somebody uses a weapon. An "OK" sign might be sufficient to establish "support"....

IMHO/IANAL, a blanket authorization or individual recognition (I hate to say "pemit" :D) probably would help the facility defend it's liability issues.

IAC, we need to remove this chunk of law. My wife is mad 'cause I won't attend with her.... That incident in Tennesee the other day didn't convince her.

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Re: Question re: church carry

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:07 am

This is one of those laws that I REALLY want to tackle, but then I realize there is absolutely NO POINT in doing so.

WITH the law, the place of worship can allow carry, IF they want to.

WITHOUT the law, the place of worship can allow carry IF they want to.

So, the fight is with the individual places of worship...not the law.
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Re: Question re: church carry

Postby SMMAssociates » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:54 am

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:This is one of those laws that I REALLY want to tackle, but then I realize there is absolutely NO POINT in doing so.

WITH the law, the place of worship can allow carry, IF they want to.

WITHOUT the law, the place of worship can allow carry IF they want to.

So, the fight is with the individual places of worship...not the law.


My wife, who has absolutely no idea (even after that Tenn. shooting), agrees with you. I don't....

The problem, as I see it, is that there are too many places for an average LAC to commit a Felony without any intent. After many years as a rent-a-cop, it occurred to me that all of the training and such (not to mention being sworn in by the current Chief of Police and six monthly bowing and scraping to get my Commission renewed) really only kept me from a misdemeanor conviction, IF anybody noticed. I'm not sure that Toby Hoover was around to lead her quest....

In early 2004, although my Commission had vanished years before, I could still carry in a Synagogue without risk of a Felony. Or in a Police Station.... Or a DMV agent's facilities.... Then, poof.... Some legislators seem to be more concerned with protecting criminals than the rest of us....

(The "automatic felony" part really, IMHO, is the problem.)

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Re: Question re: church carry

Postby WY_Not » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:24 am

I'd have to disagree as well. It may not be a fight that is at the top of the list but it is one that should be fought eventually. Gov should not be in the businesses that they must post; even if they give them a way around the law. It is still bad law. If the individual business wants to post then let them take the onus and bear the brunt of the consequences of their actions.

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:This is one of those laws that I REALLY want to tackle, but then I realize there is absolutely NO POINT in doing so.

WITH the law, the place of worship can allow carry, IF they want to.

WITHOUT the law, the place of worship can allow carry IF they want to.

So, the fight is with the individual places of worship...not the law.
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Re: Question re: church carry

Postby JustaShooter » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:41 am

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:This is one of those laws that I REALLY want to tackle, but then I realize there is absolutely NO POINT in doing so.

WITH the law, the place of worship can allow carry, IF they want to.

WITHOUT the law, the place of worship can allow carry IF they want to.

So, the fight is with the individual places of worship...not the law.

I disagree, there is a point in doing so - two of them, actually.

First, the difference between "opting out" and "opting in" is a very important distinction. They should be treated no differently than any other private entity. You don't want people to carry, post a sign. Allowing them the privilege of opting in to carry, with no signage requirement, gives them special standing in the law, and that is wrong.
Second, by making it a statutory no-carry zone, it becomes a Felony under Ohio law. This makes it worth fighting in my opinion *especially* since there is no signage requirement.

Is it as important as some of the other initiatives we are working on? Not to me, but others may disagree.
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Re: Question re: church carry

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:36 pm

Well, maybe we can get the penalty for church carry dropped to a MM/$25 fine. 8)
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Re: Question re: church carry

Postby M-Quigley » Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:56 pm

JustaShooter wrote:
MyWifeSaidYes wrote:This is one of those laws that I REALLY want to tackle, but then I realize there is absolutely NO POINT in doing so.

WITH the law, the place of worship can allow carry, IF they want to.

WITHOUT the law, the place of worship can allow carry IF they want to.

So, the fight is with the individual places of worship...not the law.

I disagree, there is a point in doing so - two of them, actually.

First, the difference between "opting out" and "opting in" is a very important distinction. They should be treated no differently than any other private entity. You don't want people to carry, post a sign. Allowing them the privilege of opting in to carry, with no signage requirement, gives them special standing in the law, and that is wrong.
Second, by making it a statutory no-carry zone, it becomes a Felony under Ohio law. This makes it worth fighting in my opinion *especially* since there is no signage requirement.

Is it as important as some of the other initiatives we are working on? Not to me, but others may disagree.


THIS.
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Re: Question re: church carry

Postby schmieg » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:55 pm

I think it is something we must eventually address, but there are more important issues at the moment. When we do it, we will have to be prepared for a significant backlash from multiple sources, some with significant money and more influence. A state legislator can vote to change this, but his vote will have no impact on abortion law, so the Catholic Church would probably step in as would the city ministries which have strongly opposed any changes to this in the past. While those organizations may not be allowed to overtly participate in political campaigns and political activities, they carry a lot of weight and can suggest to their congregations to vote against candidates who support certain issues.

Sorry, Stu. Don't know if the synagogues carry that much muscle in the statehouse, but I assume they would weigh in as well.
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Re: Question re: church carry

Postby SMMAssociates » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:53 am

Mike:

We (the Jews, a tribe I'm a member of, for the two guys on here that don't know :D) don't have enough clout.... I don't expect much traction.

A story: When I was in Elementary and High Schools (and I think the faculty and staff were busy sacrificing to Baal because there were too many of us :D), somebody noticed.... On Fridays, in deference to the Catholic Tradition, the schools didn't serve meat, and other considerations (days off for traditionally Catholic/Christian holidays, for example) were in place where I lived.

In the case of the meat, the schools had always served a non-meat alternative so that cafeteria-dwellers had an alternative. Grilled cheese and tomato soup. The cheese was hilariously similar to melted red crayons (and didn't taste much better :) ), and the cheese resembled the same crayons, colored pink/yellow. I'm surprised that the Catholics didn't revolt.

"We" managed enough clout to decide to complain against having to bring lunches just to avoid non-Kosher meats. Right, more melted crayons and greasy cheese.... I think they're still doing that.

Becka graduated in 2004. I think the celebrations are still going on :mrgreen: . Somewhere in the few years before that, she got a letter from the School to the effect that she had too many unexcused absences in the prior year or thereabouts. I had the opportunity to get involved, including the damning portions of her records. Yup.... She was out for her Grandfather's (my dad's) funeral, and at least one day of a major Jewish Holiday a couple times. I called the Assistant Principal, and he said he'd look, but we should ignore it.

I sent 'em a note to the effect that I thought the whole thing funny, but somebody might take offense. Whack the IT gang who you might feel responsible, to avoid other action.

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Re: Question re: church carry

Postby M-Quigley » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:09 am

schmieg wrote:I think it is something we must eventually address, but there are more important issues at the moment.


I agree.

schmieg wrote: When we do it, we will have to be prepared for a significant backlash from multiple sources, some with significant money and more influence.


So what? Let them publically declare that their special interest group is better than any other private entity. Were not talking about them not having the ability to prohibit guns from coming in, it would just make current law equal for all non governmental organizations. They can still post a sign like private businesses. Let them try to explain that they deserve special treatment over other groups. Let them try to sell to their members how a no guns sign or law makes them safer against mass murderers, when most of the public now knows that is an ignorant argument to make. People I know who don't even carry or like guns know that's an illogical argument. The only thing they can come up with is something like "Guns don't belong in a church". Tell that to mass murderers, because they don't care about the penalty for a gun violation. Allowing CHL holders to carry concealed in a church should be no different than a fire extinguisher, first aid kit, or defibrillator. Still, if a church wants to ignore facts and logic, let them say so publically, with a no guns sign.

The real reason they don't want a change is many churches are having a hard time right now getting the seats filled, and they don't want to offend some people to might use a no guns signs as a (legitimate IMO) excuse not to attend. I've gotten 3 mail ads recently from 3 different churches wanting me to attend their services. (and probably bring money too :roll: ) One of them was a nice glossy large ad. In addition, there are TV ads from the Catholic church, wanting former members to come back.
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