Can we have a frank discussion here?

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Chuck
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by Chuck »

747tech wrote:I know what has ticked me off over the years is nobody in management responds. I had log in questions years ago and no answers. A few years back OFCC was soliciting new writers (I bet the topic still exists) go look at the activity. Again I was interested but had questions about the complexity of submitting topics and there again was no answers.
One time when I had a podcast management contacted me and after I answered there was no further communication.
It would seem to me there is the appearance of wanting to make changes but that's where it dies.
Changes ARE happening in the organization. Me joining the BOD is just one example. This thread is another.

I remember that thread about wanting writers. At that time, I wasn't in a position to do anything about it at all. Now, I could probably make that happen if you still want to do it. If this is so, shoot me a PM with your email and we can get started.
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"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington

"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by Chuck »

Ole_grizzly wrote:Thank you chuck for creating this topic, it's been a very interesting read.

Tweed Ring's passing I think has had a large affect on board participation in my opinion. I didn't care for what he said half the time, but boy did I follow his threads and appreciated all the news articles he posted. I also learned so much from him, and he's hard to replace.

I have been a patron member because the information I have learned from all the members has been so valuable, that I am thankful for all the current and past efforts and will continue to support that by remaining a member. I also belong to honor the contributions of this organization that I am now the beneficiary of.

That being said, my interest has dwindled. I work in the medical profession, traveling mainly to large cities and work at academic medical centers. In other words, I am around educated liberals almost exclusively, and have to keep my views on firearm ownership, healthcare, etc. mainly private. I do listen to what they say though, and I'm guessing these are views that many new to firearm ownership come in thinking after they graduate from college.

1. The all or nothing attitude of 2nd amendment supporters is so extreme, many younger people can't ramp up to the level of ferocity by those that are loudest.

2. The advocation against training requirements and background checks, to those that haven't taken the time to learn anything below surface level, seems crazy. (I think the gun rights community would do itself many favors by advocating for thorough, ongoing training, but people have their hearts so hardened on what they believe is the correct approach, I.e. Constitutional carry, that their immediate dismassal and insult of opposing or uneducated viewpoints immediately turns that type of person off forever. Just remember, you had to think it through the first time too.)
1. Are you talking about OFCC? If so, who?

2. Training requirements should be met in HIGH SCHOOL government class, same as all our other constitutional rights. We teach kids how to write newspaper articles, vote, how to not testify against themselves and to insist on a warrant before consenting to a search, why not spend a week or two on gun safety? Why should a citizen be forced to spend his own money on training in order to exercise a right that "shall not be infringed"?
I am all about training, as an instructor, I teach people how to safely handle a gun all the time.
The world would be a much better place if a high school diploma meant that one was trained with firearms along with the rest of a high school curriculum

Ole_grizzly wrote:As far as my own personal issues with ofcc that has me now having a dual membership with BFA, are as follows.

1. Legislative priorities, such as removing notification requirements, seem superfluous, when if you know the law, follow it, you won't have a problem. As I stated in a previous thread in the Ohio politics section, the wars you went through many years ago with police departments not following the laws are still raw wounds, that newer members like me don't share. Would I like notification removed? Sure, it's dumb and unnecessary. However, if you joined forces with BFA to sponsor teachers receiving training to possibly provide protection and response to a school shooting think about what we could do together. This is why I joined BFA, because having two kids less than 5, I worry greatly about their safety at school. Arming and training teachers could make a real world difference rather than spending time and money repealing a dumb law that is easily avoided.

2.Another legislative priority that I think would do our organization some good is to create an education campaign to show both legislators and the public that the way the criminal justice system plea bargains actual violent felons causes an enormous amount of the violence that all firearm owners are lumped into by the liberal media. In other words, instead of fighting for incremental rights like removing notification rights, what if we pushed for legislation that removed plea bargains for repeat violent offenders? Longer mandatory minimum sentences for those committing violent crimes? Legitimate punishments for straw purchasers? I'd go to the statehouse for that, and would actually be an issue people on many sides could unite around.

3. Lastly, I know someone in a high position at the Plain dealer/cleveland.com. I know a few years ago the immature, arrogant, go to hell response the PD got when he reached out for comment from ofcc at my recommendation caused them to never consider our viewpoint again, as they continued to further rail against any legislation, viewpoints, or anything a gun rights group supposedly stands for. Notice any gun article now always includes a quote from Jim Irvine. The past is the past, it's time to grow awareness, not hold onto old grudges. Chuck, it would probably be beneficial to try to reopen a line of communication with the editorial board so that the next time they write an article proclaiming blood in the streets, perhaps they'd put an opposing viewpoint in.

I do think ofcc is a great organization, I will continue to be a member as long as it's around, and I know that no organization will ever match up with any one person's political or personal views. I think the best thing ofcc could do is drop grudges, positions, and assumptions from 10 years ago and reinvent themselves focused on more relevant issues today.

1. Our legislative priorities come from our members. I won't get into trying to convince you all the reasons why notification is still a horrible law practiced by only twenty percent of the states. I will tell you that if you don't like the results of our poll, you should be trying to convince our fellow members to change THEIR priorities.

2. I have sat in those committee hearings waiting on our bills to come up when they were discussing prisons, and crowding, and releasing, paroling, and recidivism rates. It is some of the most messed up reasoning and procedures you have ever seen. On one side you have the people who make money of the prisons arguing for stronger sentences. All the lawmakers want stronger sentences because that is what the voters want. On the other side, you have all the bureaucrats who make money by supervising parolees (probation officers, halfway houses, counselors, etc) along with the trial lawyers, who make money every time someone is arrested. If a person who is on parole has a much greater chance of being arrested than a person who has never done time, then you need those people on the street getting arrested again and again.
Bottom line is,,,, That ain't my fight, and I don't like any of the people on either side of the issue.

3. Tell me more about this incident. PM me if you don't want to get specific on the open forum. Give me a contact at the PD and I'll see if they are interested in hearing from us.


Thank you for your support. It is very much appreciated
Ain't activism fun?

"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington

"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by Chuck »

schmieg wrote:
Brian D. wrote:I haven't brought this up in a long time: How about doing away with that forum rule that requires all local meet and greets to be pre-approved by "management" before posting them on here? A form has to be filled out with several questions answered. And my experience was that there wasn't always a timely response.

For crying out loud, most people who want to throw a shindig have been members here for years. Do you really think such folks are going to organize an event that trashes OFCC's vaunted reputation? Heck, a little bad press is better than (nearly) no press at all.

That pre-approval rule has always struck me as pedantic and untrusting of grown men and women.
That rule originally arose because of events that were being advertised on the forum that OFCC did not want to even closely be associated with. Somehow, it got carried over to include Meet 'n" Greets and other local things that originally weren't intended or considered in making the rule. I will add my voice to yours at least for the Meet 'n" Greets.
That rule has been a pain in my side ever since it got enacted. Let me throw that at the coordinators and see if I can convince enough of them to agree with me and make it go away.
Worst I can do is lose
Ain't activism fun?

"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington

"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by Chuck »

M-Quigley wrote:B: Just haven't had the money yet, due to being disabled but not receiving disability yet. I can barely afford a yearly NRA renewal, but that doesn't stop them from mailing or calling. I haven't bought any new guns, (get get a used Taurus for very little money) and almost no ammo purchases either. Fortunately I had some old ammo laying around or I wouldn't be able to afford to do any shooting either. I've had to sell almost my entire gun collection just to pay the bills. Hopefully my financial situation will change soon, and I will be able to contribute financially to a small degree. I'd like to go to the PITP someday, (despite living 2 hrs away) For someone living on the fringes of the state like myself, a central location is preferable to say, having to go all the way to Cleveland or something.

Can someone coming in from the Dayton area give M-Quigley a ride? I'd like to meet him and will pay for your lunch if you do. His lunch too
Ain't activism fun?

"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington

"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by JediSkipdogg »

schmieg wrote:
JediSkipdogg wrote: As for PitP and other events, not sure why those are hard at all since I don't believe any account is needed to register for those. So it should be no differently than purchasing something from say the NRA store.
If we would implement the one suggestion above that members would be charged a lower price for FNG and PITP and other events than non-members, this statement may change.
Not necessarily. It would most likely be handled via an email to members only with a special coupon code they could use. Unfortunately, to allow coupon codes the entire back end of the website needs updated, and well, that's out of my hands.
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by M-Quigley »

Chuck wrote:
M-Quigley wrote:B: Just haven't had the money yet, due to being disabled but not receiving disability yet. I can barely afford a yearly NRA renewal, but that doesn't stop them from mailing or calling. I haven't bought any new guns, (get get a used Taurus for very little money) and almost no ammo purchases either. Fortunately I had some old ammo laying around or I wouldn't be able to afford to do any shooting either. I've had to sell almost my entire gun collection just to pay the bills. Hopefully my financial situation will change soon, and I will be able to contribute financially to a small degree. I'd like to go to the PITP someday, (despite living 2 hrs away) For someone living on the fringes of the state like myself, a central location is preferable to say, having to go all the way to Cleveland or something.

Can someone coming in from the Dayton area give M-Quigley a ride? I'd like to meet him and will pay for your lunch if you do. His lunch too
I appreciate the offer of a free lunch, but it's not necessary, I'm not that broke (yet) :) The thing that kept me from attending last time wasn't money as much as a prior family commitment, and a vehicle which at the time, needed repairs to be safely driven that far. (those repairs have all since been completed.) I'd like to meet some of the people on here myself. Even though I now have the means and ability to go, I unfortunately have a prior commitment on Aug 12th this year that I probably can't get out of in time.
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by carmen fovozzo »

The more I read these posts the more upset I am for not being able to attend this year.So many work hard to put PITP on...It's obvious change is coming and that's a good thing...


CHuck, could you maybe Uber me a box lunch ....?
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by Chuck »

You send the driver and the Missus will make you a care package!
Ain't activism fun?

"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington

"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by Chuck »

As we learn from our old friend Schmeig, notification is still around and hassling honest gun carriers

http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php? ... 6#p4378411" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ain't activism fun?

"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington

"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by Ole_grizzly »

Chuck wrote:
Ole_grizzly wrote:Thank you chuck for creating this topic, it's been a very interesting read.



1. The all or nothing attitude of 2nd amendment supporters is so extreme, many younger people can't ramp up to the level of ferocity by those that are loudest.

2. The advocation against training requirements and background checks, to those that haven't taken the time to learn anything below surface level, seems crazy. (I think the gun rights community would do itself many favors by advocating for thorough, ongoing training, but people have their hearts so hardened on what they believe is the correct approach, I.e. Constitutional carry, that their immediate dismassal and insult of opposing or uneducated viewpoints immediately turns that type of person off forever. Just remember, you had to think it through the first time too.)
1. Are you talking about OFCC? If so, who?

These two points are mostly made generally, not specifically at ofcc, but are my observations as to people that haven't been a part of the gun rights movement sees people like us.


2. Training requirements should be met in HIGH SCHOOL government class, same as all our other constitutional rights. We teach kids how to write newspaper articles, vote, how to not testify against themselves and to insist on a warrant before consenting to a search, why not spend a week or two on gun safety? Why should a citizen be forced to spend his own money on training in order to exercise a right that "shall not be infringed"?
I am all about training, as an instructor, I teach people how to safely handle a gun all the time.
The world would be a much better place if a high school diploma meant that one was trained with firearms along with the rest of a high school curriculum


Awesome idea Chuck about high school training requirements, that would be a legislative priority I'd get behind. I know the bar for that is probably impossible to overcome thought. My point is that I know we on this forum and many gun-rights advocates know that the most effective training is that for which you seek out, not that is mandated. People that haven't thought it through, or anti's, will use that attitude as a false flag that gun rights advocates don't want any training, but want to carry a gun everywhere. Again, just listing how we're perceived by a large amount of people.

Ole_grizzly wrote:As far as my own personal issues with ofcc that has me now having a dual membership with BFA, are as follows.

1. Legislative priorities, such as removing notification requirements, seem superfluous, when if you know the law, follow it, you won't have a problem. As I stated in a previous thread in the Ohio politics section, the wars you went through many years ago with police departments not following the laws are still raw wounds, that newer members like me don't share. Would I like notification removed? Sure, it's dumb and unnecessary. However, if you joined forces with BFA to sponsor teachers receiving training to possibly provide protection and response to a school shooting think about what we could do together. This is why I joined BFA, because having two kids less than 5, I worry greatly about their safety at school. Arming and training teachers could make a real world difference rather than spending time and money repealing a dumb law that is easily avoided.

2.Another legislative priority that I think would do our organization some good is to create an education campaign to show both legislators and the public that the way the criminal justice system plea bargains actual violent felons causes an enormous amount of the violence that all firearm owners are lumped into by the liberal media. In other words, instead of fighting for incremental rights like removing notification rights, what if we pushed for legislation that removed plea bargains for repeat violent offenders? Longer mandatory minimum sentences for those committing violent crimes? Legitimate punishments for straw purchasers? I'd go to the statehouse for that, and would actually be an issue people on many sides could unite around.

3. Lastly, I know someone in a high position at the Plain dealer/cleveland.com. I know a few years ago the immature, arrogant, go to hell response the PD got when he reached out for comment from ofcc at my recommendation caused them to never consider our viewpoint again, as they continued to further rail against any legislation, viewpoints, or anything a gun rights group supposedly stands for. Notice any gun article now always includes a quote from Jim Irvine. The past is the past, it's time to grow awareness, not hold onto old grudges. Chuck, it would probably be beneficial to try to reopen a line of communication with the editorial board so that the next time they write an article proclaiming blood in the streets, perhaps they'd put an opposing viewpoint in.

I do think ofcc is a great organization, I will continue to be a member as long as it's around, and I know that no organization will ever match up with any one person's political or personal views. I think the best thing ofcc could do is drop grudges, positions, and assumptions from 10 years ago and reinvent themselves focused on more relevant issues today.

1. Our legislative priorities come from our members. I won't get into trying to convince you all the reasons why notification is still a horrible law practiced by only twenty percent of the states. I will tell you that if you don't like the results of our poll, you should be trying to convince our fellow members to change THEIR priorities.

2. I have sat in those committee hearings waiting on our bills to come up when they were discussing prisons, and crowding, and releasing, paroling, and recidivism rates. It is some of the most messed up reasoning and procedures you have ever seen. On one side you have the people who make money of the prisons arguing for stronger sentences. All the lawmakers want stronger sentences because that is what the voters want. On the other side, you have all the bureaucrats who make money by supervising parolees (probation officers, halfway houses, counselors, etc) along with the trial lawyers, who make money every time someone is arrested. If a person who is on parole has a much greater chance of being arrested than a person who has never done time, then you need those people on the street getting arrested again and again.
Bottom line is,,,, That ain't my fight, and I don't like any of the people on either side of the issue.

I understand all that. My point is that all gun regulations never seem to address the actual problems associated with guns. I think at a minimum if we made a push to get straw purchases punished identically to the future criminal act that would be a big win and discourage straw purchases. That at least doesn't go against the money train you just described. And, how could politicians on either side of the aisle be against that? I think it's a narrow window that both sides of the debate can get behind and maybe build on something from there.

3. Tell me more about this incident. PM me if you don't want to get specific on the open forum. Give me a contact at the PD and I'll see if they are interested in hearing from us.

As for the Plain Dealer, I asked him about that interaction and he couldn't remember the person's name, but he was expecting a cordial discussion and it was far from that. He did say he'd be willing to talk with someone like yourself Chuck to give ofcc a voice when they have future gun-related editorials. I will PM his contact information for you.


Thank you for your support. It is very much appreciated
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by ScottyPotty »

To be honest, I pretty much left after the last forum changes. I still lurk, every few weeks but hardly post. It seems that fewer people post anything I'm interested in and I do a quick drive by and leave. I never did get real used to the avatars on the right side.

I still try to keep a site sponsor(just renewed - thanks for the reminder) and I hear what you are saying about BFA but they seem to be winning in the media. Having different 2A agendas for Ohio is not a good long term plan IMHO
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by rottman43055 »

For me personally, a few reasons.

Years ago I used to be active here and was an evangelist for gun rights.

I can't remember what little title was under my name but I was a paying member for a while.

It's been so long since I was active here I'm not even sure if my reasons, input etc. are even relevant but I feel I got hosed and this group didn't back me when my OC meet went south do to the cops. At that time cops weren't the friendliest to the 2A community, especially open carry folks and back in that day I literally would have risked a bullet if I felt it would have advanced the cause, so not getting any communication and being abandoned really angered me.

Then the argument I had with the people saying they wouldn't use their gun to defend another at PITP, even if they saw an unarmed woman being attacked at PITP they'd just be a good witness. This really got me thinking because I would come to someone's aid & decided I wasn't going to purposely surround myself with those kind.

Last PETTY thing was a little snobbery by three individuals.

I know that's ancient history, but I realized back then I no longer fit in anymore.

That said, I bet once a month I STILL refer people to this forum because it's full of very knowledgeable people and Ohio is lucky to have such a group that works on laws etc. & I genuinely hope it does well, I really mean that. So MABE I am still helping :lol:
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by Mustang380gal »

I am sorry that you did not receive the support you wanted or needed, Rottman.

I am glad you came back to chime in. You have been missed.
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by Chuck »

rottman43055 wrote:For me personally, a few reasons.

Years ago I used to be active here and was an evangelist for gun rights.

I can't remember what little title was under my name but I was a paying member for a while.

It's been so long since I was active here I'm not even sure if my reasons, input etc. are even relevant but I feel I got hosed and this group didn't back me when my OC meet went south do to the cops. At that time cops weren't the friendliest to the 2A community, especially open carry folks and back in that day I literally would have risked a bullet if I felt it would have advanced the cause, so not getting any communication and being abandoned really angered me.

Then the argument I had with the people saying they wouldn't use their gun to defend another at PITP, even if they saw an unarmed woman being attacked at PITP they'd just be a good witness. This really got me thinking because I would come to someone's aid & decided I wasn't going to purposely surround myself with those kind.

Last PETTY thing was a little snobbery by three individuals.

I know that's ancient history, but I realized back then I no longer fit in anymore.

That said, I bet once a month I STILL refer people to this forum because it's full of very knowledgeable people and Ohio is lucky to have such a group that works on laws etc. & I genuinely hope it does well, I really mean that. So MABE I am still helping :lol:
Dude,
You're one of the reasons I am what I am around here.
My first open carry event ever was at your church.
I was there when you had your little go round in the street with Newark PD.
And we worked to change things.
Back then I shared the some of same complaints about the group as you too

But you left the organization, and I stayed and worked it. Now look! See that badge under my name?
Never thought that would happen, did you?

I think you ought to give us another look
Ain't activism fun?

"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington

"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by Chuck »

Mustang380gal wrote:I am sorry that you did not receive the support you wanted or needed, Rottman.

I am glad you came back to chime in. You have been missed.

Don't feel too sorry for him.
Don's my friend, and I distinctly remember him saying he wasn't asking for help.
He handled the situation well. Several of us wrote the police chief. No charges were filed and the cops got trained.
Good times
Ain't activism fun?

"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington

"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
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