Can we have a frank discussion here?

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sd790
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by sd790 »

When people think of gun rights in Ohio, they do NOT think of OFCC. They say NRA and BFA.

As others have said, BFA is a marketing machine and, as much as nobody likes it, marketing matters.
For instance:
  • I get regular emails from them about current gun-related news.
    I participate in about 6 BFA gun raffles a year at $25 a ticket. (PLEASE don't tell my wife!)
    I take classes that they organize as often as possible because they are available and interesting.
    Their website is current, relevant, and interesting to read. Their forum sucks tho. (no offense to AlanM)
    I hear BFA people talk on Cam & Co about state and national issues and NRA TV.
    I see them on the news broadcasts, and hear them on the radio.

They come across as professional, organized, and relevant. OFCC usually does not.
I recently saw Doug on a YouTube video with Munitions Law Group (aka The Gun Lawyer). THAT is a great start and he did a wonderful job with it!

I can't think of a way to get OFCC pointed in the right direction, though. It will take a lot of work from people who are not helping today. People with talent need to get engaged to build and update a modern web site with current and relevant information and news, organize regular email summaries of the content on the new web site. We need official spokespeople who will wear a suit and represent ALL gun owners well. We need money, enthusiasm, and talent. Where the heck do we find all of that?!
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by TJW815 »

Between work, kids and their activities, my responsibilities to my church, and trying to find time to spend with my wife, many things have been placed on the back burner.

Sadly the decision came way in regards to OFCC due to the slanted moderating that I've witnessed in these forums. Some of the moderators, coordinators, etc. sometimes have their ways about them that just make people not want to participate.

I would recommend to some that instead of coming of as no-it-alls that you take the time to listen(read) what others are trying to say.

Lastly the amount of anti law enforcement and immature comments I see anymore makes the threads less appealing to myself.
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by BEAR! »

Mustang380gal wrote:
Fenster wrote:I've stopped coming mainly because there's essentially no room for me here (or other gun sites).

I am a strong supporter of the 2nd Amendment but not a single issue voter. The amount of posts I have to skip because "libtard" this and "Oscummer" that makes for relatively few threads I actually want to participate in. There's no interest in finding common ground, only winning at "the other side's" expense. No desire to discuss, understand, or listen - just yell louder. I am also a strong supporter of the 1st Amendment, so while I don't agree with what's said or how it's said, I'll fight to ensure people can say what they want. Doesn't mean I have to stick around and listen to it.

There was some of this before the election, but in the last 8-12 months, it's gotten much worse. I HATE going to my gun club meetings because it's all of this x10. As a result, I tend to shoot alone or with a small group of friends (who don't necessarily share my views, btw).

That's my reason for being scarce on the forums.
According to the TOS, politics are supposed to be limited to 2A issues. We moderators have tended to let it slide a bit, especially during the election.

I agree that the name calling is not helpful at all. Name calling toward other posters is not permitted, but maybe it needs to broaden a bit to include some of those other terms. I am not a fan of the way some people on both sides have taken the presidents' names and made it into an insult, either.

Both sides of the political spectrum have unfortunately fallen into the yell louder camp.


There are fewer people who moderate here, and I work night shift, so availability is limited. If you see this kind of uncomfortable and unnecessary conversation, report the post, send me a PM and I will take care of it as soon as humanly possible. I get emails when I get a PM, so I don't need to be logged on to the forum to know that I need to attend to something. It seemed that there was some interest in the politics being broadened a bit, but if it is causing people to leave, then I can certainly keep things tighter.

In the "you can't please everybody" category, we have in the past gotten criticized for keeping too tight to the TOS, keeping conversation too stunted. Hopefully, we can get the pendulum swinging the other way, and find a happy medium.
Please do not increase the moderation even more. This is a gun related/second amendment related forum and the more conservative side of the isle is always bowing down to the liberal side in both politics (house and senate) and on the forums and frankly I'm tired of it. I find the moderation on this forum heavy handed enough, it doesn't need more. I know one of the rules is to not criticize the moderators but you did ask, so please don't banish me. :mrgreen:
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by gaptrick »

sd790 wrote:When people think of gun rights in Ohio, they do NOT think of OFCC. They say NRA and BFA.

As others have said, BFA is a marketing machine and, as much as nobody likes it, marketing matters.
For instance:
  • I get regular emails from them about current gun-related news.
    I participate in about 6 BFA gun raffles a year at $25 a ticket. (PLEASE don't tell my wife!)
    I take classes that they organize as often as possible because they are available and interesting.
    Their website is current, relevant, and interesting to read. Their forum sucks tho. (no offense to AlanM)
    I hear BFA people talk on Cam & Co about state and national issues and NRA TV.
    I see them on the news broadcasts, and hear them on the radio.

They come across as professional, organized, and relevant. OFCC usually does not.
I recently saw Doug on a YouTube video with Munitions Law Group (aka The Gun Lawyer). THAT is a great start and he did a wonderful job with it!

I can't think of a way to get OFCC pointed in the right direction, though. It will take a lot of work from people who are not helping today. People with talent need to get engaged to build and update a modern web site with current and relevant information and news, organize regular email summaries of the content on the new web site. We need official spokespeople who will wear a suit and represent ALL gun owners well. We need money, enthusiasm, and talent. Where the heck do we find all of that?!
Excellent points^^^^

Personally, I've been around these forums for the past 8-10 years or so. That was when I became aware of the gun culture and wanted more. It was the only place I know of I could get serious answers to some deep legal questions I had at the time. I learned what I needed to know and then some. I'm confidant in my knowledge of laws and do's and don'ts BECAUSE of this site. I still like it and I've been around ever since.

I had tried to re-up my membership some time ago and the money taking end of this site wouldn't take it. After some inquiries about it I was told its fixed up now, but I never took the time to go back (something I still need to do... and will).

There was a page here that would sell things... shirts, caps, cups and the like. Things that would make one feel as if they might belong to something. That place is no longer available... "What's OFCC?' will never be asked of the guy with the logo on his shirt because they don't exist.

And frankly, the wicked which of the west has left Washington so the guard is down. We live with a false sense of security.
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by schmieg »

gaptrick wrote:
I had tried to re-up my membership some time ago and the money taking end of this site wouldn't take it. After some inquiries about it I was told its fixed up now, but I never took the time to go back (something I still need to do... and will).

There was a page here that would sell things... shirts, caps, cups and the like. Things that would make one feel as if they might belong to something. That place is no longer available... "What's OFCC?' will never be asked of the guy with the logo on his shirt because they don't exist.

And frankly, the wicked which of the west has left Washington so the guard is down. We live with a false sense of security.
The membership page has been fixed for some time now. We had to take the store down some time ago because there wasn't enough being bought there to keep our supplier interested. It gave us the choice of buying the product and self stocking or giving it up. The cost and operational issues in self stocking made that prohibitive and impractical. We can't afford to provide a service that no one is interested, at least not enough people to make it at least a financial wash.

People who are interested in working for improving the law and Second Amendment issues are welcome to become active in the organization. I hear all this old boys stuff from people, but they never seem to be interested in volunteering their time, so the "old boys" continue the work. Many of them would more than welcome help on a lot of that. We are a grassroots organization, but the roots seem to be drying up.
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by carmen fovozzo »

Yeah, you guys sure are old. :mrgreen:
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by carmen fovozzo »

Here's a question we need to ask our selves.....conceal carry licenses have increased tremendously......yet our membership has not....the potential members are out there....we need someone that can devote a good amount of time going after these people....Gun shows help but not enough..

FOr me OFCC has taught me many things that I use in my everyday life.....

IT has also taught me that there are a few cheap skates on this forum like Steve...he bought me breakfast once...only thing was is he ordered for him self 3 eggs and sausages....he gave me one of the eggs and a half of a sausage..that right there is cheap...and then there is this guy running for councilman in Bedford...last year he drove us down to PITP and wanted me to pay for a oil change and lube job on the way down....
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by 747tech »

I know what has ticked me off over the years is nobody in management responds. I had log in questions years ago and no answers. A few years back OFCC was soliciting new writers (I bet the topic still exists) go look at the activity. Again I was interested but had questions about the complexity of submitting topics and there again was no answers.
One time when I had a podcast management contacted me and after I answered there was no further communication.
It would seem to me there is the appearance of wanting to make changes but that's where it dies.
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by steves 50de »

carmen fovozzo wrote:Here's a question we need to ask our selves.....conceal carry licenses have increased tremendously......yet our membership has not....the potential members are out there....we need someone that can devote a good amount of time going after these people....Gun shows help but not enough..

FOr me OFCC has taught me many things that I use in my everyday life.....

IT has also taught me that there are a few cheap skates on this forum like Steve...he bought me breakfast once...only thing was is he ordered for him self 3 eggs and sausages....he gave me one of the eggs and a half of a sausage..that right there is cheap...and then there is this guy running for councilman in Bedford...last year he drove us down to PITP and wanted me to pay for a oil change and lube job on the way down....
:lol:
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by 3FULLMAGS+1 »

Sevens wrote:If we have to have a Frank discussion... fine. I'd much rather have a Chuck discussion, but this will have to do. :o
^This is a typical example of what I often add to these pages. Inconsequential cracks and such. I will also spew off a short rant when I find someone "in the news" that peeves me off, such as the drunken ghost of Ted Kennedy, former officer & card-carrying steaming turd Harless, etc etc.

Probably more than anything, I enjoy discussing handloading and I try my best to offer help in that area any time I can, because I feel that I'm somewhat skilled at it and I can be helpful. In other words, 180 degrees from sorting and interpreting the ORC which I am painfully BAD at doing.

OFCC events, I do have opinions on those.
PITP, I attended for 4 years consecutively, iirc. Early on, the prize table had my interest the most. After attending two of them, it was the comraderie of a small handful of friends that was the draw. The location is certainly easy for me and maybe my opinion gets easily discounted because I live in the middle of the State but I think it's a silly suggestion when out of towners complain that it never moves from Central Ohio. Ummm, that location makes it easiest for EVERY Ohioan, not to mention the guest speakers who are far more than "familiar" with events near the Capitol (as opposed the possibility being hundreds of miles away from some alternate event site.


The Fun 'n Gun is my event. I think I've done the last six. The only true annoyance is how few folks that seem to live on the forums seem to EVER show up to this event. The FnG is not only important because it's a genuine find raiser for this organization... but for cryin' out loud it's a bunch of good folks with guns -- and shooting. I cannot understand why everyone isn't chomping at the bit to be there!

As for the organization and the forums... it occurred to me years ago that the two are related but not "one." It seemed to me long ago that the forums had many "loud voices" and the organization (whoever those actual people were) paid very little attention to the forums at all and seemingly had very little interest in anything (ANYTHING!) discussed on the forums.

About that ^^^, a couple things:
A) I believe that is much different here in 2017 than it was in say 2009 or 2011. I believe this is due to the work of guys like Chuck, Morne, Mgal380, Jake, Jedi and others whose names escape me but are no less important. I believe the time & energy they spend on the forum AND discussing organizational business is extremely important to the (seemingly large number of) people who have a need to have a voice in something they support.


B) as it happens, I'm not that kind of people. While I realize fully that this -is- a grassroots org, and OFCC and the political issues OFCC deals with are both important to me, neither crack the top handful of things that require my time, passion and energy. God bless retired guys, actual lawyers and folks that exhibit obvious above average intelligence AND the charisma and ability to present good ideas to others, especially to lawmakers.

Why am I a Patron member? Because I'm a laborer by trade and I clock 55+ hours a week. That I can give some cash and maybe some activity on the forum and a little handloading advice is a way that I can (hopefully) help. No, I cannot get to the State House, I have about 90 mins before and after work when I'm not actually at work or commuting. I have children also. I post almost always at slow moments in the middle of my chaotic work day.


I also support this organization for two big reasons-- because I feel that I owe them for PAST accomplishments in the State of Ohio and because I trust their drive and direction on future accomplishments here in Ohio.


I am sure that I most certainly have NO CLUE how to best accomplish the things that OFCC accomplishes.
And I also don't know the best way to "sell" the organization and generate interest in OFCC. And maybe I'm a jerk (been accused of it before, don't care about the critics enough to argue any critics) but when I hear posters that cry, whine or complain about this organization... :lol: usually I just chuckle. Awww, look... someone's having a tough day. :lol:

Y'know what else?! My posts are TOO DAMN LONG. Who in their right mind wants to read all of that?!

I've often wanted to ask of those who frequent this forum, especially those who are not "paid' members of OFCC, the questions that Chuck has posed here in this discussion.
And I'd like to discuss a few things Sevens has brought up.

A little background on my involvement with OFCC is in order here, along with why I continue to stay with them,(OFCC).

Before 2012, I wasn't really involved , (or maybe interested in at all , for that matter), in my rights as a gun owner and the effort it takes to change those laws which infringe on those rights that we "should" be able to exersize (which, I think, is at the heart of the lack of activism among gun owners , not only in Ohio, but with most gun owners as a whole.
I first became involved with BFA before 2012....by involvement, I mean as a forumite only, not a paid member....... then I found OFCC .
I knew very little back then regarding the issue between the two organizations and I suspect that is the case with most of those that frequent BFA's forums AND ours, by the comments I see on both forums . In the short time I have been involved with OFCC, I have learned from Chuck , (and others), each organization has its priorities.
Yes , both are involved in the legislative process, but much of what we "now" benefit from, since "04, and the resulting changes in our carry laws since then, have been in large part, due to the hard work and persistance of those in OFCC who do the "work" behind the scenes. If it were not for the efforts of the few, and I mean VERY few , that actually get involved, we would not be as far along in reclaiming our rights as we are now. Unless you are "actively" involved at the statehouse, most really don't understand how things work and why things "seem" to move at a snails pace AND because most DON'T get involved, for whatever reason, our voices aren't heard, except through the efforts by those at OFCC. Please consider this the next time you "think" OFCC isn't productive enough or active enough in the legislative arena and you choose NOT to join through a paid membership or donate. One person, Jeff Garvis, chose to start this whole thing we know as OFCC. And through his efforts, and the efforts of the "few" that have chose to join him at OFCC, have tried to represent ALL gun owners in Ohio, on our own time AND dime. They aren't doing it for the money, that's for sure. And don't think we can rest for a minute, as the anti-gunners would surely reverse and undo all we've accomplished if they could.
There is a thread where Chuck asked for volunteers and I saw it and responded. As a result, I took on some of Chucks responsibilities freeing him up for more important things, things that I'm not good at. Can you do the same!

Now, as far as some of the comments Sevens made that I haven't discussed.....

(1) As far as the locations , (and reasons for those locations), that OFCC has chosen to hold it's "Party in the Park", "Fun & Gun" and so forth, there are reasons for those locations being where they are, as I understand it, which I can't go into here.
As for setting up Meet & Greets in your area, bring the issue up in our events forum, others in your area might like to do the same. I set one up in my area earlier this year at a local restaurant and there were about fifteen people show....ya have to start somewhere.

(2)Do you know how to accomplish what OFCC volunteers do or have done in the past? Are you willing to learn and /or take the time to do those things on your own.
If not, then what are your alternatives ? Do you want to go out there and start your own gun rights organization and start from scratch , learning what OFCC has already learned and spent the last eighteen years or so, putting into practice ?
It's not easy. So if you can't do what OFCC is doing on your own, you need to "trust their drive and direction" as Sevens puts it, and join us. Together, we are stronger.

If OFCC disbanded today, what would our future look like in Ohio for gun owners in regards to keeping those gains we have made in the past and furthering those rights in the future ? We as gun owners in Ohio, need OFCC to keep those gains made in the past and to press forward in the future and OFCC needs two things to accomplish that, (1).....Volunteers, and (2) money. That's just how it is. If you can't volunteer your time, then give what you can monetarily . If you can't give your time OR your money, then please don't complain.
Don't ask what is OFCC is doing for you, but rather we should "each" be asking what we can do to help OFCC and the cause to advance our rights. Yes , I volunteer as much as I can and am frustrated when I can't give as much time and/or money as I'd like, but I won't complain about things that are out of my or OFCC's control.

I'm not trying to point a finger here , just trying to keep things in perspective.
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by Brian D. »

Small point about the annual picnic: Holding it in central Ohio gives us the best odds of getting state level elected officials and other candidates running for those jobs to show up. Delaware and north Franklin Counties seem to be where a decent percentage of them live, and it's certainly not far from where they work in Columbus.

As for the others, even if they reside in one of the corners of Ohio, Liberty Park/Powell is at most a three hour trip tops. Simple geography. Hope I made sense with this assessment.
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by sd790 »

3FULLMAGS+1 wrote:<snip>

If OFCC disbanded today, what would our future look like in Ohio for gun owners in regards to keeping those gains we have made in the past and furthering those rights in the future ? We as gun owners in Ohio, need OFCC to keep those gains made in the past and to press forward in the future and OFCC needs two things to accomplish that, (1).....Volunteers, and (2) money. That's just how it is. If you can't volunteer your time, then give what you can monetarily . If you can't give your time OR your money, then please don't complain.
Don't ask what is OFCC is doing for you, but rather we should "each" be asking what we can do to help OFCC and the cause to advance our rights. Yes , I volunteer as much as I can and am frustrated when I can't give as much time and/or money as I'd like, but I won't complain about things that are out of my or OFCC's control.

I'm not trying to point a finger here , just trying to keep things in perspective.
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by Stryker74 »

Chuck already knows all of this, but I am just putting it out there for everyone else....

My participation behind the scenes has dwindled off in the past 6-9 months. I have a full-time IT job, along with a side contract, that keeps me pretty busy. In addition to that, I have a 17-year old going into his senior year that is very active in his JROTC corp drill team, which participates in about 6 competitions per year (not to mention all the community service hours he participates in). Finally, my wife and I are helping to run the JROTC boosters that was decimated by theft about a year ago - and almost completely shut down all the extra activities outside of the classroom for these cadets.

We keep a pretty full plate right now, and OFCC was the thing that had to decrease in my priority list.

That said, I still believe in the mission of OFCC. The legislative work is that gets done is like being a hotel maid - it can be very messy, not at all glorious, but is a job that needs to be done. And that is where OFCC has excelled over the years. Being the quiet entity in the corner handling a lot of the dirty work at the Statehouse.


Are there some things that need improvement? You bet. We discuss a lot of things behind the scenes for improvement - and we are making some headway. Maybe not as much as we all want, but there is some movement in what we all hope is a positive direction. There are times when a single step forward is countered with 2 steps back - which should be expected.


Volunteers are always needed. I am sure that somewhere, somehow we can put a volunteer to work. However, we have to get people to volunteer first. For instance, we stopped manning a table at Columbus gun shows because of lack of volunteers. Chuck, MWSY, and I were the constant persons at those tables. Occasionally we would get a person to come in for a few hours, but that dwindled off. So, the 3 people that were doing them once a month for 8-9 months a year started to wear down - and the cost of getting everything we needed for a gun show table went up with the venue change to the State Fairgrounds - so we had to stop.


None of the persons that are behind the scenes can dedicate to this like it is a job. We are all volunteers that are carving out a piece of our time to give to OFCC. In other cases, we give financial support where we can as well because our time is not as available. It all makes the wheels turn in this organization to make sure we have a forums to consume, to make sure we can have an organized gathering at PITP, and to make sure we can have a yearly Fun 'n' Gun.


If there are things you want to see OFCC take on, change, add, remove, or all of the above - then come to PITP. Most of the Board of Directors will be in attendance. Talk to them. If you don't know who the directors are - then please feel free to ask for me (real name Aaron) - I will point them out. But, if you have a gripe - be prepared to offer a solution and a way to fix the thing you see as broken. Again - this is an all volunteer organization, so you might have to chip in to help fix that problem.

If you can't or don't want to volunteer - then consider memberships or donations. If there is enough money that can be put in the coffers, then maybe the solution would be to hire some people to help fix things you don't like. (Not saying that is an absolute, but money makes more things possible.)
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by Werz »

Thanks, Chuck. Some of us just need a reminder. I had let my Patron membership lapse months ago; I just renewed it. I also bought a ticket to PITP. And because two of the speakers are my state representative and my state senator, I guess that, alone, obliges me to be there.
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Re: Can we have a frank discussion here?

Post by M-Quigley »

Fenster wrote:I've stopped coming mainly because there's essentially no room for me here (or other gun sites).

I am a strong supporter of the 2nd Amendment but not a single issue voter. The amount of posts I have to skip because "libtard" this and "Oscummer" that makes for relatively few threads I actually want to participate in. There's no interest in finding common ground, only winning at "the other side's" expense. No desire to discuss, understand, or listen - just yell louder. I am also a strong supporter of the 1st Amendment, so while I don't agree with what's said or how it's said, I'll fight to ensure people can say what they want. Doesn't mean I have to stick around and listen to it.

There was some of this before the election, but in the last 8-12 months, it's gotten much worse. I HATE going to my gun club meetings because it's all of this x10. As a result, I tend to shoot alone or with a small group of friends (who don't necessarily share my views, btw).

That's my reason for being scarce on the forums.
I'm active on the forums, but regarding just the bolded, I feel the same way. I have friends, acquaintances, and relatives who run the gambit politically, from far right to far left, but mostly moderates, not single issue voters.

Regarding posting what might seem like anti law enforcement posts of news stories, I'm far from anti law enforcement, as I used to be paid security and public law enforcement reserve. Just because a news story is posted doesn't mean to imply the cop is actually guilty of what they're accused of, just like regular citizens accused of something. Most the law enforcement I worked with were good, but not all of them, just like with every other profession. I've personally seen a few cops who either were grossly incompetent or corrupt. I was personally involved in an investigation once of a cop I once thought of as a friend, only to find out he was as crooked as the civilian thieves. I have little tolerance for bad cops, who if not dealt with make other people in law enforcement look bad by association.

Regarding financial support, I haven't been financially supporting the organization or the forum, only because I

A: don't do anything financial online, (like paypal) and

B: Just haven't had the money yet, due to being disabled but not receiving disability yet. I can barely afford a yearly NRA renewal, but that doesn't stop them from mailing or calling. I haven't bought any new guns, (get get a used Taurus for very little money) and almost no ammo purchases either. Fortunately I had some old ammo laying around or I wouldn't be able to afford to do any shooting either. I've had to sell almost my entire gun collection just to pay the bills. Hopefully my financial situation will change soon, and I will be able to contribute financially to a small degree. I'd like to go to the PITP someday, (despite living 2 hrs away) For someone living on the fringes of the state like myself, a central location is preferable to say, having to go all the way to Cleveland or something.
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