Hey, you wouldn't want to see a bunch of lawyers out of work, would ya? We gotta stay up to our armpits in gators..litigators, that is.JustaShooter wrote:You mean to tell me that there is no specified method to resolve conflicts in the law itself like this one outside of court? Like, the most recently enacted section wins, or the section that falls later in the law, or the least / most restrictive, etc.? Seems that would be a standard part of the body of law since conflicts like this are unfortunately inevitable.schmieg wrote:There is. It's called court.JustaShooter wrote: But, the new law appears pretty clear in that it applies to any "public or private employer". So, when such apparent conflicts exist in the law, how does one decide which has precedence? In this case, the state has said the new law applies, and I suspect they've had their lawyers look things over. But I'm still curious, it seems there must be a mechanism to use to determine which applies.
SB 199 issue at work
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Re: SB 199 issue at work
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!
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Re: SB 199 issue at work
The worst part is, if it's won in court, it still doesn't automatically change the law. It simply creates "case law" which is even harder to dig up than "ORC law." I'm not sure if it's still on the books, but there use to be a law that municipalities can't enforce traffic laws on highways if they don't have a direct on or off ramp in their jurisdiction. Obviously, that set a lot of places off because when you have 5 jurisdictions in 1 mile, you can't expect them to all have on and off ramps. The Ohio Supreme Court struck the law down but I know for at least 10 years it was still on the books and still being brought up by defendants in court only to be told by the prosecution the law was struck down.Brian D. wrote:Hey, you wouldn't want to see a bunch of lawyers out of work, would ya? We gotta stay up to our armpits in gators..litigators, that is.JustaShooter wrote:You mean to tell me that there is no specified method to resolve conflicts in the law itself like this one outside of court? Like, the most recently enacted section wins, or the section that falls later in the law, or the least / most restrictive, etc.? Seems that would be a standard part of the body of law since conflicts like this are unfortunately inevitable.
SB199 is a perfect example of how sloppy the elected are. Governments can allow carry by passing an ordinance but they still must post signs saying no carry allowed. And that is why we have attorneys and why they charge so much. They get the job of digging through all this legal BS that gets passed.
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Re: SB 199 issue at work
Yeah but Jedi, many if not most of those elected to the Statehouse are lawyers themselves. They have other lawyers and staff available to them any dang time, to figure out if a bill they're working through--in Lee Majors/Steve Austin super slo mo--is ultimately legal and workable. And you make it sound like the way to fix it is..bring in more lawyers.
Sometime when you're working on your property, digging a hole, and find you're in so deep you can't climb out, ring me up and... I'll bring you a bigger shovel.
Sometime when you're working on your property, digging a hole, and find you're in so deep you can't climb out, ring me up and... I'll bring you a bigger shovel.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!
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Re: SB 199 issue at work
So what happened to the "voluntary" part, if that is the case?JustaShooter wrote:No, they will fire you for not following the company policy that requires you to fill out & sign the form, not for having a gun in your car.M-Quigley wrote:According to who? How would they find out? Car searches? Even if they discover someone legally has a gun in their car, then what? They are just going to ignore the new law?38smith wrote:It is voluntary but if you don't sign to their stipulations then you can't bring your firearm. Nothing new from our union. Idk if it came from corporate or Totino bigshots within the plant. Ufcw 1059 is about worthless so I'm sure they won't help.
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Re: SB 199 issue at work
Simple - if you don't want to store your gun in your car, don't fill out the form. Completely voluntary. </sarc> But unfortunately, the way I read the new law, completely legal.M-Quigley wrote:So what happened to the "voluntary" part, if that is the case?JustaShooter wrote:No, they will fire you for not following the company policy that requires you to fill out & sign the form, not for having a gun in your car.M-Quigley wrote:38smith wrote: "It is voluntary but if you don't sign to their stipulations then you can't bring your firearm. Nothing new from our union. Idk if it came from corporate or Totino bigshots within the plant. Ufcw 1059 is about worthless so I'm sure they won't help."
According to who? How would they find out? Car searches? Even if they discover someone legally has a gun in their car, then what? They are just going to ignore the new law?
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Re: SB 199 issue at work
I'm not a lawyer, but when I read the law on parking lot storage I didn't anything in reference to "with permission of the employer" or other similar language.JustaShooter wrote:Simple - if you don't want to store your gun in your car, don't fill out the form. Completely voluntary. </sarc> But unfortunately, the way I read the new law, completely legal.
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Re: SB 199 issue at work
Perhaps they didn't bother with the sign part because they figured it was a moot point.JediSkipdogg wrote:SB199 is a perfect example of how sloppy the elected are. Governments can allow carry by passing an ordinance but they still must post signs saying no carry allowed.
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Re: SB 199 issue at work
One team leader made the comment that the gun has to be unloaded because if they walk a person out and they have a loaded gun in their vehicle then they could use it. Um it takes a while 5 seconds to load a gun so I don't agree with his thinking.
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Re: SB 199 issue at work
Duh, that's why you walk them out to their car and tell them to stand there and count to 100 without looking while you flee back to the building.38smith wrote:One team leader made the comment that the gun has to be unloaded because if they walk a person out and they have a loaded gun in their vehicle then they could use it. Um it takes a while 5 seconds to load a gun so I don't agree with his thinking.
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Re: SB 199 issue at work
As long as the policy doesn't prohibit you from storing your firearm in your vehicle, I see nothing that prevents them from requiring notice - recall, the law says you must have a CHL, so they would appear to be with the letter of the law to require you to show you are eligible.M-Quigley wrote:I'm not a lawyer, but when I read the law on parking lot storage I didn't anything in reference to "with permission of the employer" or other similar language.JustaShooter wrote:Simple - if you don't want to store your gun in your car, don't fill out the form. Completely voluntary. </sarc> But unfortunately, the way I read the new law, completely legal.
Again, badly written law. Blame the lawmakers.
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Re: SB 199 issue at work
So, what is required of a vehicle that does not have a locking compartment inside the vehicle and does not have a trunk? Based on how the current law is worded, I can't secure my firearm in my van.
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Re: SB 199 issue at work
Correct, as I read the law. Get a gun safe for your van.Buckeyedoc wrote:So, what is required of a vehicle that does not have a locking compartment inside the vehicle and does not have a trunk? Based on how the current law is worded, I can't secure my firearm in my van.
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Re: SB 199 issue at work
Job security; confidentiality agreement in the fraternity of lawyers/legislators, the more confusing/complicated the laws, the more lawyers are required. Judges (lawyers themselves) won't allow any defense to proceed unless proper protocol is followed by a "trained" lawyer. It's futile to try to deny or ignore this reality.JustaShooter wrote:As long as the policy doesn't prohibit you from storing your firearm in your vehicle, I see nothing that prevents them from requiring notice - recall, the law says you must have a CHL, so they would appear to be with the letter of the law to require you to show you are eligible.M-Quigley wrote:I'm not a lawyer, but when I read the law on parking lot storage I didn't anything in reference to "with permission of the employer" or other similar language.JustaShooter wrote:Simple - if you don't want to store your gun in your car, don't fill out the form. Completely voluntary. </sarc> But unfortunately, the way I read the new law, completely legal.
Again, badly written law. Blame the lawmakers.
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Re: SB 199 issue at work
I just got an email from our union today regarding this. I was planning a consult with DeBrosse and it appears our local has allocated funds to do the same. I didn't want to go to the company myself of course.
My employer wants us to fill out a form and give them a copy of our permit. The information could include model and serial number. This info goes to a private security company we use that hires people that dont look old enough to buy a handgun to begin with. They have no vested interest in the company and would know who has a gun in their vehicle, where they park, when and how long they are working. I think that is a security issue itself.
They are also requiring the gun to be unloaded while on the property and it cannot physically be loaded, unloaded or otherwise manipulated while on the property. We are a private company but fall under homeland security regulation as well. They also already do dog searches randomly. Local PDs train their dogs here so simply "keeping my mouth shut" doesn't work unfortunately because that is my normal modus operandi.
I am hoping to have some answers soon to post here. It could have a statewide affect whatever we come up with.
My employer wants us to fill out a form and give them a copy of our permit. The information could include model and serial number. This info goes to a private security company we use that hires people that dont look old enough to buy a handgun to begin with. They have no vested interest in the company and would know who has a gun in their vehicle, where they park, when and how long they are working. I think that is a security issue itself.
They are also requiring the gun to be unloaded while on the property and it cannot physically be loaded, unloaded or otherwise manipulated while on the property. We are a private company but fall under homeland security regulation as well. They also already do dog searches randomly. Local PDs train their dogs here so simply "keeping my mouth shut" doesn't work unfortunately because that is my normal modus operandi.
I am hoping to have some answers soon to post here. It could have a statewide affect whatever we come up with.
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Re: SB 199 issue at work
Our union and company tried to come to a decision about the new law and I guess they are above Ohio law. They say since it is Company wide that no firearms are permitted then it also applies to our parking lot. It's their property so they can decide not to allow it. I always thought state law was to be followed.