How many carrying revolvers

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glocksmith
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Re: How many carrying revolvers

Post by glocksmith »

Mr. Glock wrote:Now, I will fully admit I'm a disciple of the 357Sig. I should change my screen name to Mr. 357Auto (the Glock way of saying the 357Sig)
Since you know the history of the .357 SIG maybe you can tell us why they even bothered to design it when the .38 Super (which AFAIK has the same ballistics) had already been around for a long time.?
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Morne
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Re: How many carrying revolvers

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IIRC, the reason to go to a bottlenecked casing was to improve feeding reliability for double-stack magazines with a single-feed point into the chamber. That is to say, the cartridges need to go from being staggered to single-stack before feeding. Bottlenecks aid that by giving some leverage to whichever round is slightly higher in the magazine.

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Re: How many carrying revolvers

Post by Mr. Glock »

glocksmith wrote:
Mr. Glock wrote:Now, I will fully admit I'm a disciple of the 357Sig. I should change my screen name to Mr. 357Auto (the Glock way of saying the 357Sig)
Since you know the history of the .357 SIG maybe you can tell us why they even bothered to design it when the .38 Super (which AFAIK has the same ballistics) had already been around for a long time.?

The 357Sig is just the 40 necked down to 9mm. Since the 40 was designed (from the 10mm) to a length that fit 9x19 guns, the 357 drops right into the same size guns. Plus, the bottleneck helps feeding, but the intention was a "better" 9mm that would give the power of the 40 without the snappy recoil of the 155-165 gr 40s.

The 357Sig is 1.14" long (9mm is 1.16 and the 40 is 1.135), the 38 Super is 1.28" long. Too long to fit the 9x19 frame windows, it was developed off the 38 Auto and was intended for the 1911 (which has a larger frame window).

Plus, the 357Sig is faster (roughly by 200 fps), so a 38 Super +P+ would have blown up older guns (the 38 Automatic and 38 Super Automatic were the same length, and had that issue as the really old pocket model Colts can not take the Super). And, being long already, you con only make a semi-auto round so long vs width before you introduce potential feeding issues.

Incidentally, fitting a larger round into a 9x19 gun was the whole reason for the 45GAP. You need a bigger frame gun for the 45Auto, which is harder to conceal and harder for many people to hold as well as the 9x19 guns. Solution: Put a 45 in a shorter case to fit the 9x19 frame window (although the Glock GAP slides are a little bigger due to width, I believe). Great idea..who wouldn't want to carry a 45 Auto in a Glock 19 gun? Well, no one it seemed. But it did bring us the Springfield EMP, which was ground up designed for the 45GAP.
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Re: How many carrying revolvers

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Honest question: What are the motivations to carry a bulkier, slower-to-reload, lower capacity handgun? Is it nostalgia, style, or are there any real advantages that I'm not aware of that make it a better choice?
For some strange reason I was thinking about this thread, and, in particular, this somewhat derogatory comment implying that people choose a revolver merely because of "nostalgia, style"...and it dawned on me that there are probably many more whose guns of choice are influenced primarily by peer pressure (cause that's what everyone else is buying) and the current fad of "tacticool" stuff...namely AR's and polymer framed, high-capacity semi-autos. How many of the people who own those types of weapons chose them, not for the above reasons but, rather, because they could shoot most accurately with that platform...or because such weapons best suit their personal needs?
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Re: How many carrying revolvers

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glocksmith wrote:
Honest question: What are the motivations to carry a bulkier, slower-to-reload, lower capacity handgun? Is it nostalgia, style, or are there any real advantages that I'm not aware of that make it a better choice?
For some strange reason I was thinking about this thread, and, in particular, this somewhat derogatory comment implying that people choose a revolver merely because of "nostalgia, style"...and it dawned on me that there are probably many more whose guns of choice are influenced primarily by peer pressure (cause that's what everyone else is buying) and the current fad of "tacticool" stuff...namely AR's and polymer framed, high-capacity semi-autos. How many of the people who own those types of weapons chose them, not for the above reasons but, rather, because they could shoot most accurately with that platform...or because such weapons best suit their personal needs?
I posted that question and meant nothing derogatory at all, so I apologize if it came across that way to you.

It is my impression that revolvers generally are less capable for EDC because they are generally bulkier, slower-to-reload, and lower capacity. I seriously want to learn if my understanding is inaccurate and there are advantages to them. I teach new shooters regularly and have not yet come across any who shoots a revolver better or more comfortably than a compact semi-auto. The best advantage that I have heard yet is that you can shoot through a pocket or purse without causing a malfunction.

You say that some people shoot them better. That's reasonable and I appreciate your input.
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Re: How many carrying revolvers

Post by Brian D. »

Good questions from you, glocksmith. I spent a bunch of years shooting (center fire) handgun matches with either a full size 1911, or six shot K, L, or N frame S&W revolver. By now I've eliminated those size revolvers as defensive choices, purely due to large size/small capacity, but not the 1911 platform. Mr. Browning's creation just fits me right, tends to point where I'm looking, and then there's the unbeatable trigger pull.

Now so many of the newer matches are best served with a higher capacity semiautomatic, and truth be told they've grown on me because of that, and ease of cleaning & maintenance. Finally, I'll grudgingly admit they are more reliable than the old 1911.
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Re: How many carrying revolvers

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sd790 wrote:I posted that question and meant nothing derogatory at all, so I apologize if it came across that way to you.
Nah, I didn't mean it that way. It's just that it implies that people who choose to carry revolvers - for the very serious business of CC/SD - do so for the very shallow reasons of nostalgia or being stylish. It also made me realize how many factors there are in choosing a CC gun...some of which have absolutely zilch to do with practicality. So many young people with not a whole lot of firearms experience are getting their CHL's after they turn 21. Having so little trigger time behind them what exactly is it that inspires them to buy a Glock, an M&P or XD...the usual suspects? Not many of them spring (immediately at least) for a wheelgun. Why not buy a wheelgun? How many people are inspired to buy a certain weapon because they saw it in a movie? Did anybody give a ++++ about the Beretta before Lethal Weapon came out in 1987?...after which everyone had to have one? Back to the wheelgun and original question posed...I switched to a revolver from my previous carry guns G22, XD9, G30...knowing full well that I was sacrificing firepower aka high capacity for a gun that just felt better in my hands and with which I shot tighter groups. No one will ever accuse me of being trendy or fashionable or whatever. I know it raises eyebrows when I tell most people I carry a wheelgun...I sort of like it that way...not belonging to the CC "herd".
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Re: How many carrying revolvers

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One advantage of the wheel gun is an easy manual of arms. For those who rarely carry and don't care to train much, a.wheel gun is much easier to use under stress. Easy to check if loaded, easy to.solve a non-firing round by just.pulling the trigger again and.hard to put the rounds.in the wrong direction. Those are strong points for a certain percentage of the population that over-powers the strong points of the auto pistol, even if they.might.shoot a small.auto better in the controlled atmospherr of the.squarr.range.

First rule, the gun must go bang and.continue to do so until.ammo.expended. That's a.good rule.
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Re: How many carrying revolvers

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Mr. Glock wrote:One advantage of the wheel gun is an easy manual of arms. For those who rarely carry and don't care to train much, a.wheel gun is much easier to use under stress. Easy to check if loaded, easy to.solve a non-firing round by just.pulling the trigger again and.hard to put the rounds.in the wrong direction. Those are strong points for a certain percentage of the population that over-powers the strong points of the auto pistol, even if they.might.shoot a small.auto better in the controlled atmospherr of the.squarr.range.

First rule, the gun must go bang and.continue to do so until.ammo.expended. That's a.good rule.
I recall that many of the aviators in Viet Nam carried revolvers because they were concerned they might not have use of both hands after a crash.
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Re: How many carrying revolvers

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Mr. Glock wrote:One advantage of the wheel gun is an easy manual of arms.
^ This. I know a few people who choose a revolver simply because they don't want to deal with all the "messing around" with magazines, slides, etc. They're physically able to, they just don't want to.

Revolvers have plenty of other advantages. They can't be loaded backwards. There's no issue with the magazine not being fully seated or accidentally becoming loose (an unclosed cylinder makes itself known right away). If the gun doesn't go bang, simply pulling the trigger will fix the problem 999 times out of a thousand (rough estimate). Because the cylinder is wider than the frame they are pretty easy to draw from a pocket carry. They can be fired from inside a coat pocket (handy feature in winter).

Many of the revolver downsides aren't really significant compared to the likely need for the armed citizen. Bulkier? Not compared to double-stack semi-autos. Lower capacity? It's extremely uncommon for armed citizens to actually fire more than 2-3 rounds, let alone need to do so. Slower to load? How many non-LEOs have actually reloaded during a DGU? I've looked, a lot, and it seems to be as rare as getting hit by lightning on your way to pick up your lottery winnings.
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Re: How many carrying revolvers

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I think they just feel so much better in the hand, and for me they point more naturally than a block...err, I mean Glock. It's hard to beat the feel of a well fitted pair of Hogue or Pachmayr grips on a wheelgun. For some reason those double stack semi-autos never felt natural in my hand...always awkward.
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Re: How many carrying revolvers

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glocksmith wrote:I think they just feel so much better in the hand, and for me they point more naturally than a block...err, I mean Glock. It's hard to beat the feel of a well fitted pair of Hogue or Pachmayr grips on a wheelgun. For some reason those double stack semi-autos never felt natural in my hand...always awkward.
And they look a lot cooler when you twirl them around your finger (only do with uncocked single action or unloaded double action), but they don't look as good when taped to your head. :P
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Re: How many carrying revolvers

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schmieg wrote:
Mr. Glock wrote:One advantage of the wheel gun is an easy manual of arms. For those who rarely carry and don't care to train much, a.wheel gun is much easier to use under stress. Easy to check if loaded, easy to.solve a non-firing round by just.pulling the trigger again and.hard to put the rounds.in the wrong direction. Those are strong points for a certain percentage of the population that over-powers the strong points of the auto pistol, even if they.might.shoot a small.auto better in the controlled atmospherr of the.squarr.range.

First rule, the gun must go bang and.continue to do so until.ammo.expended. That's a.good rule.
I recall that many of the aviators in Viet Nam carried revolvers because they were concerned they might not have use of both hands after a crash.
This brings up an excellent point. In a SD encounter you may not have both hands available to run the gun. In fact, a great many SD encounters are at contact distance where one hand may be grappling the adversary. It is that same thinking that led me to routinely carry not just 1 but 2 revolvers, one on each side. I figured that way no matter which hand was already engaged I had access to draw a gun when needed.

Furthermore, at contact distance a semi-auto may get shoved out of battery if it is in contact with the adversary. Revolvers don't have that hang-up.

Lastly, if your gun hand/arm is injured during a fight you may not be able to properly grip a semi-auto in such a way as to avoid the dreaded "limp-wrist" malfunction. Again, revolvers don't care about that.

Whatever your position you can find arguments and data to support it. Most people decide first and then seek out validation.

Whatever works for you works for you. I genuinely hope none of us ever have to test our theories in real life.
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Re: How many carrying revolvers

Post by schmieg »

Morne wrote: Whatever works for you works for you. I genuinely hope none of us ever have to test our theories in real life.
One thing I hope I never have to test is whether the 460 Magnum is sufficient to stop a charging grisly when I'm in the mountains out west.
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Re: How many carrying revolvers

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Morne wrote:
schmieg wrote:
Mr. Glock wrote:One advantage of the wheel gun is an easy manual of arms. For those who rarely carry and don't care to train much, a.wheel gun is much easier to use under stress. Easy to check if loaded, easy to.solve a non-firing round by just.pulling the trigger again and.hard to put the rounds.in the wrong direction. Those are strong points for a certain percentage of the population that over-powers the strong points of the auto pistol, even if they.might.shoot a small.auto better in the controlled atmospherr of the.squarr.range.

First rule, the gun must go bang and.continue to do so until.ammo.expended. That's a.good rule.
I recall that many of the aviators in Viet Nam carried revolvers because they were concerned they might not have use of both hands after a crash.
This brings up an excellent point. In a SD encounter you may not have both hands available to run the gun. In fact, a great many SD encounters are at contact distance where one hand may be grappling the adversary. It is that same thinking that led me to routinely carry not just 1 but 2 revolvers, one on each side. I figured that way no matter which hand was already engaged I had access to draw a gun when needed.

Furthermore, at contact distance a semi-auto may get shoved out of battery if it is in contact with the adversary. Revolvers don't have that hang-up.

Lastly, if your gun hand/arm is injured during a fight you may not be able to properly grip a semi-auto in such a way as to avoid the dreaded "limp-wrist" malfunction. Again, revolvers don't care about that.

Whatever your position you can find arguments and data to support it. Most people decide first and then seek out validation.

Whatever works for you works for you. I genuinely hope none of us ever have to test our theories in real life.
There's something on this subject I forgot to mention previously, about the woman who used a small revolver in a DGU. .This was prior to licensed carry, so she had no obligation to take any training. This was also before many of the modern compact and sub compact semi autos of today existed. Back then if you wanted a similar sized semi auto to a 2 inch snub nose revolver it was probably something like a Walther PPK. Even though I don't advise women to purse carry I figured she might, so I did advise her that IF she chose to purse carry, please don't just throw it loosely in the purse. I gave her a holster which she could attach to the inside of her purse somewhere. Thankfully she took that advice. I also advised her to practice with it. I later found out her practice was 5 shots fired single action at a cardboard pizza box target attached to a tree. Her boyfriend also fired 5 shots with it, just to try it out. She then put it in the holster in her purse (didn't clean or oil it) and never fired it again for years, until the day of the attack. The ammo was the same ammo I gave her when I sold the gun. When the attack happened she had no idea someone was going to attack her, until he was right up next to her. Her left hand was deflecting the attackers weapon away from her, and her right hand was reaching into her purse for the gun. Her attacker saw her pulling the gun out of the purse and grabbed her right arm, so she couldn't bring it up to toward his body. During the struggle she basically angled the gun toward the guy just hoping to hit him somewhere, anywhere, in the hope that a gunshot wound would cause him to release her right arm. She was lucky she didn't accidentally shoot herself in the process.

On the one hand, if she had a semi auto I don't know if she would've had a malfunction under the circumstances. On the other hand, if he had put his hand on the revolver cylinder itself instead of her arm it might've interfered with her shooting it. I suppose however if he had been able to grab the gun itself a semi auto would also malfunction if the slide is pushed back slightly. As quickly as things were happening however, it was probably harder for him to grab the gun itself rather than her arm. Anyway, despite doing a lot of things wrong, she still was able to defend herself. In her case, simple was better I guess.
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