RENEWAL DENIED?

[slidelock]

docachna, When I read your post suggesting the FOIA, I misread it and thought MWSY sent it and thought he was suggesting I send in a request. My mistake, I haave agreed to let Mwsy try to do what he can. I intend to wait for any results from his efforts. I suspect the 10 day deadline is essentially meaningless. The Sheriff clearly believes that he cant proceed with an approval without a background check from BCI. I think he is misreading the law, but we'll see.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

Deputy Hall oversees the CHL office. He has a civilian employee that does fingerprints and receives apps.

There is a DISPATCHER that actually inputs the data. She says she has never tried performing the new NICS check without entering an SSN. She also has not contacted the AG's office.

Dep. Hall won't be in until after 4pm today. I'll try to touch base with him.

[JediSkipdogg]

Deputy Hall oversees the CHL office. He has a civilian employee that does fingerprints and receives apps.

There is a DISPATCHER that actually inputs the data. She says she has never tried performing the new NICS check without entering an SSN. She also has not contacted the AG's office.

Dep. Hall won't be in until after 4pm today. I'll try to touch base with him.

Hmmm, my area of expertise...

All of the LEADS and NCIC manuals are publicly accessible through the Ohio LEADS Website.... http://leads.ohio.gov/Manuals" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For NICS we are looking at the NICS Denied Transaction File. Section 5.3 has the Message Field Codes for Inquiry. If one looks at SOC it is "conditional." To look at what that means we look at the following section...

5.4 REQUIREMENTS FOR INQUIRY
An inquiry of the NDTF may be made by name and one, more than one, or all of the following alphanumeric identifiers: DOB (including year, month, day), MNU, and SOC with each data element preceded by the proper MFC. Additionally, inquiries may be made using NAM and NTN only, in that order; NAM and STN only, in that order; or NIC only, with each data element preceded by the proper MFC.

If they have the DOB, which they do from the application, then they do not need the SOC as well for inquiry. Hence why it is conditional.

Hopefully that helps you some MWSY.

And BTW...Dispatchers and jails usually have the most knowledgable people about LEADS and NCIC. Officers do more harm than good touching it. Also, most in the AGs office will be clueless as well about it since they don't use it nor even know how to find the manuals.

[slidelock]

Jedi, I would understand your answer better If I knew what all those abreviations stood for. It looked like you were saying that the manual says the SSN is not an absolute necessity for a background check, Please expand on that. It could be really helpful. Thanks!

[JediSkipdogg]

Jedi, I would understand your answer better If I knew what all those abreviations stood for. It looked like you were saying that the manual says the SSN is not an absolute necessity for a background check, Please expand on that. It could be really helpful. Thanks!

I will use a dispatcher as an example of the person processing this paperwork.

The dispatcher will be given the paperwork and needs to run a check through NICS as required by Ohio. We all know what NICS is, so no need to explain that. But unlike an FFL who sits on the phone and has someone else run it, law enforcement automatically runs it themselves.

When the dispatcher does that in Ohio, they do it through a LEADS terminal using a NICS Denied Transaction File (NDTF) query. LEADS is the Ohio Law Enforcement Automated Data System, aka our criminal justice computer system. The query is then sent to NCIC which actually is where NICS data is stored.

This query requires the dispatcher to enter the name and one physical identifier. The physical identifier can be your date of birth (DOB), a miscellaneous number (MNU), or social security number (SOC.) The MNU is complicated and generally not used so I won't even explain that one. They can enter all three of the previous, or only one. Since your application has your name and DOB, those are the only two they need to enter.

SO yes, I'm saying the SSN is not necessary for the transaction. Just like a NICS hit at a firearm dealer, it will help minimize delay in a close match, but it is not required.

[slidelock]

Thanks Jedi! Much obliged.

[someguy]

A fountain of knowledge on this site I tell you!

[MyWifeSaidYes]

Okay.

Just got a call from someone at Jackson Co. SO. I didn't get his name, but he was over the CCW Supervisor (Dep. U. Hall) and below the Sheriff (Sheriff Frazier).

He said (not an exact quote), 'What we've got is someone, some rebel, that doesn't want to put down his number. So, what we were gonna do is just give him the option of resubmitting his application at his appeal hearing next week, and if he still doesn't want to, we were just going to tell him he needs to go somewhere else.'

What I said (an exact quote) was, "That would be a bad thing."

I then told him that LEADS didn't require an SS number, someone in the background (I assume it was Dep. Hall and I assume I was on speakerphone) said, "I need a social to clear a person electronically!". To that, I replied, "Through where?"

"The AG's office." he said.

"Really?", I replied. "That's funny, because I just spoke to our contact at the AG's office and he said you didn't." As they both apparently started to reply, I spoke over them and said, "Would you like his number so you can ask him directly?"

"Yes. Please."

Stay tuned for the next thrilling issue of "The Joys of Compliance."

[Javelin Man]

Popping some corn right now....

[docachna]

"God, I hate it when the peons know what they're talking about !"

--- Unknown deputy at Jackson County S.O.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

While slidelock and I visited the Ross County Sheriff's department, researching a different issue, slidelock received a voicemail from the Jackson County Sheriff.

Not just the Sheriff's office...the Sheriff...asking slidelock to give him a call.

Of course, he didn't get the voicemail in time to return the call before the Sheriff left for the day.

So now, poor slidelock has to wait all weekend to find out why the Sheriff was calling.

Man, I hate it when that happens.

[3FULLMAGS+1]

Does anyone have his home ph. #

[kentman]

I will use a dispatcher as an example of the person processing this paperwork.

The dispatcher will be given the paperwork and needs to run a check through NICS as required by Ohio. We all know what NICS is, so no need to explain that. But unlike an FFL who sits on the phone and has someone else run it, law enforcement automatically runs it themselves.

When the dispatcher does that in Ohio, they do it through a LEADS terminal using a NICS Denied Transaction File (NDTF) query. LEADS is the Ohio Law Enforcement Automated Data System, aka our criminal justice computer system. The query is then sent to NCIC which actually is where NICS data is stored.

This query requires the dispatcher to enter the name and one physical identifier. The physical identifier can be your date of birth (DOB), a miscellaneous number (MNU), or social security number (SOC.) The MNU is complicated and generally not used so I won't even explain that one. They can enter all three of the previous, or only one. Since your application has your name and DOB, those are the only two they need to enter.

SO yes, I'm saying the SSN is not necessary for the transaction. Just like a NICS hit at a firearm dealer, it will help minimize delay in a close match, but it is not required.

Another thanks and a second to Jedi. You absolutely don't need a SSN to run someone through anything Leads, ncic, nics, bci etc. As another person who deals with this system daily, it's refreshing to hear somebody else understand how it works. Nice job describing it.

[slidelock]

So I got a phone call from the sheriff himself. He had a suggestion, that I should come in and run my application again using either zeros or ones for my social security number. That strikes me as a reasonable work around. It also suggests that this has been a software issue compounded by an all too typical attitude of law enforcement. An attitude of "We make the rules and you will respect my authority! Fortunately Sheriff Frazier didn't share that attitude, but one of his subordinates did. I still dont have my license yet, when I went in yesterday, the computer had been down all afternoon. Today should be end of my journey of renewal with Jackson County. MWSY was the linchpin in quick resolution and saving me from having to hire a lawyer. That last is especially appreciated since I just munched the rear axle in my one ton and I am not looking forward to paying for that. Once again MWSY was a huge help in getting my truck towed since it had a load of firewood in it, when it broke down. He drove from his job up north to transfer the wood from my truck so the towtruck guys could tow it!

[Gramps]

So I got a phone call from the sheriff himself. He had a suggestion, that I should come in and run my application again using either zeros or ones for my social security number. That strikes me as a reasonable work around. It also suggests that this has been a software issue compounded by an all too typical attitude of law enforcement. An attitude of "We make the rules and you will respect my authority! Fortunately Sheriff Frazier didn't share that attitude, but one of his subordinates did. I still dont have my license yet, when I went in yesterday, the computer had been down all afternoon. Today should be end of my journey of renewal with Jackson County. MWSY was the linchpin in quick resolution and saving me from having to hire a lawyer. That last is especially appreciated since I just munched the rear axle in my one ton and I am not looking forward to paying for that. Once again MWSY was a huge help in getting my truck towed since it had a load of firewood in it, when it broke down. He drove from his job up north to transfer the wood from my truck so the towtruck guys could tow it!

MWSY is a great asset to the site as are others.... Just one of the reasons I am proud to be a supporter of this group.

I have a huge pile of wood to split for next year MYSY. Wanna help?