Unless authorized by law
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Unless authorized by law
I tried to search but didn't see any answers. I am having a discussion with someone on FB and he believes that the signs that say 'unless authorized by law' applies to lawful CHL holders. I don't believe it does. I'm sure it's been discussed here before, and I apologize. But what do you say? Any links to the answer?
- MyWifeSaidYes
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Re: Unless authorized by law
Exactly which law does he believe authorizes a CHL holder to carry past such a sign?David wrote:I tried to search but didn't see any answers. I am having a discussion with someone on FB and he believes that the signs that say 'unless authorized by law' applies to lawful CHL holders. I don't believe it does. I'm sure it's been discussed here before, and I apologize. But what do you say? Any links to the answer?
When he can show you that authorization, you can tell him he is right.
MyWifeSaidYes
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Re: Unless authorized by law
I'm not really sure. He stated he looked it up a few years ago but doesn't remember the statute. He said he wanted to carry everywhere but still wanted to be legal. I'm trying to figure out how to post the screen shot of the conversation but I seem to be technologically challenged tonight.
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Re: Unless authorized by law
Give me an example of a sign. It'd be very easy to argue, IMHO, that ORC does allow us to carry a gun, mostly rendering such a sign moot. But it depends on the wording....And the intention.
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TDwin
TDwin
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Re: Unless authorized by law
IIRC the latest version of the "Liquor Control sign " uses that phase.
A wayfarer should not walk unarmed,
But have his weapons to hand:
He knows not when he may need a spear,
Or what menace meet on the road.
- Verse 38 from the Havamal, the Wisdom of Odin.
But have his weapons to hand:
He knows not when he may need a spear,
Or what menace meet on the road.
- Verse 38 from the Havamal, the Wisdom of Odin.
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Re: Unless authorized by law
Ouch.... One of my hot buttons....
And good for long threads....
Just IMHO, the ORC includes "but not for CHL holders" in the one or two places that mention Felony CPZ's - Prisons, Houses of Worship, etc. Otherwise, the A/G's booklet provides the "required" sign for such places, and tells us that we may copy it as we feel like it, but does NOT include a requirement for the "unless authorized" wording, and, IMHO/IANAL, makes this post moot. If they post does include it, though, is when we run into a mess.
(I know that Houses of Worship are only required to post if they are willing for us to carry without specific permission. Try to explain that to visitors....)
Since it's a fair assumption that the poster doesn't want us to carry in there, it's a reasonable assumption that we should obey the sign. Good place to ask 'em if they really mean it, because a lot of sign printers are sending out samples, with that include the "don't carry" thing. In many cases, it appears, that they posters really have no idea that they are not required to post at all, and/or CHL holders can carry in there....
So, if it's a Felony CPZ, don't carry. Otherwise, it's between you and the Judge.
If a property owner wishes to post "no how, no way", he/she can, and we're stuck. Stay out....
(Generally speaking, LEO's are exempt, although some could get hung for on-duty/off-duty considerations. IMHO, LEO's can ignore that.)
(The latest update - the new law will allow us to "transport" - i.e., have it in the vehicle - on school premises, but it must stay in the vehicle.)
(Tru-Heathen: If a CHL holder is NOT drinking, the State Liquor sign is NOT applicable to us.)
Regards,
And good for long threads....
Just IMHO, the ORC includes "but not for CHL holders" in the one or two places that mention Felony CPZ's - Prisons, Houses of Worship, etc. Otherwise, the A/G's booklet provides the "required" sign for such places, and tells us that we may copy it as we feel like it, but does NOT include a requirement for the "unless authorized" wording, and, IMHO/IANAL, makes this post moot. If they post does include it, though, is when we run into a mess.
(I know that Houses of Worship are only required to post if they are willing for us to carry without specific permission. Try to explain that to visitors....)
Since it's a fair assumption that the poster doesn't want us to carry in there, it's a reasonable assumption that we should obey the sign. Good place to ask 'em if they really mean it, because a lot of sign printers are sending out samples, with that include the "don't carry" thing. In many cases, it appears, that they posters really have no idea that they are not required to post at all, and/or CHL holders can carry in there....
So, if it's a Felony CPZ, don't carry. Otherwise, it's between you and the Judge.
If a property owner wishes to post "no how, no way", he/she can, and we're stuck. Stay out....
(Generally speaking, LEO's are exempt, although some could get hung for on-duty/off-duty considerations. IMHO, LEO's can ignore that.)
(The latest update - the new law will allow us to "transport" - i.e., have it in the vehicle - on school premises, but it must stay in the vehicle.)
(Tru-Heathen: If a CHL holder is NOT drinking, the State Liquor sign is NOT applicable to us.)
Regards,
Stu.
(Why write a quick note when you can write a novel?)
(Why do those who claim to wish to protect me feel that the best way to do that is to disarm me?)
יזכר לא עד פעם
(Why write a quick note when you can write a novel?)
(Why do those who claim to wish to protect me feel that the best way to do that is to disarm me?)
יזכר לא עד פעם
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Re: Unless authorized by law
Yeah Stu, I know that, but the OP 's Facebook poster may not be aware.
I've a local grocery that has that sign on the entrance door. They have a carry out only license.
I'm not going to tell them it doesn't mean what they think it does..
I've a local grocery that has that sign on the entrance door. They have a carry out only license.
I'm not going to tell them it doesn't mean what they think it does..
A wayfarer should not walk unarmed,
But have his weapons to hand:
He knows not when he may need a spear,
Or what menace meet on the road.
- Verse 38 from the Havamal, the Wisdom of Odin.
But have his weapons to hand:
He knows not when he may need a spear,
Or what menace meet on the road.
- Verse 38 from the Havamal, the Wisdom of Odin.
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Re: Unless authorized by law
I'm wondering if that phrase "unless authorized by law" was common to older pre-CC signage. AFAIK It is not common to see that confusing wording used on CPZ signage anymore. Could it be that enough people questioned it, challenged it, or disregarded it often enough that property owners were inspired to change out their signs? I ask this because one of my local shopping malls had the infamous "unless authorized by law" phrase, but they must have changed it in the past year or two. Now it has a much clearer warning: "It is illegal to bring any weapon onto the premises" along with the red slash icon. And that's all it says. Seems like they updated their message for all those pesky CC'ers inquiring about the meaning of the wording on their signage.
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Re: Unless authorized by law
There was no such thing as pre-cc signage unless some private entity decided to post their premises and by pure coincidence chose to use that wording - honestly I don't remember any signs other than on stadium/arena rules boards and they simply said no weapons.glocksmith wrote:I'm wondering if that phrase "unless authorized by law" was common to older pre-CC signage. AFAIK It is not common to see that confusing wording used on CPZ signage anymore. Could it be that enough people questioned it, challenged it, or disregarded it often enough that property owners were inspired to change out their signs? I ask this because one of my local shopping malls had the infamous "unless authorized by law" phrase, but they must have changed it in the past year or two. Now it has a much clearer warning: "It is illegal to bring any weapon onto the premises" along with the red slash icon. And that's all it says. Seems like they updated their message for all those pesky CC'ers inquiring about the meaning of the wording on their signage.
The original concealed carry law provides the language which must be substantially complied with by statutory CPZs. The final wording and pictogram format everyone knows were developed by the Attorney General in 2004 in advance of the CC law taking effect. The official language has never been changed. Since day one the A.G. has cautioned that while the sign is approved for use on government buildings, private entities desiring to prohibit firearms are strongly encouraged to consult their legal counsel concerning wording and placement. The official wording is a mouthful, as is any product of our General Assembly.
Lastly your theory is interesting but anecdotally it's the opposite of my experience. When I've contacted posted businesses concerning their sign more often than not I've been told that the signs do not apply to properly licensed folks. OK then.
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Re: Unless authorized by law
Thanks for clarifying that dj. That brings us full circle now. The new sign at my mall simply reads "It is illegal to bring any weapon onto the premises." So, if we interpret it directly, that means cops cannot bring a weapon inside either. Whereas the old "unless authorized by law" signs were too complicated and confusing...the new ones have the potential to cause confusion as they are too simple and straightforward.
Give em' Hell Pike!!!
- evan price
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Re: Unless authorized by law
Signs? What signs? I didn't see a sign.
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Carpe Noctem- we get more done after 2 am than most people do all day.
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Re: Unless authorized by law
The ones that are blockin out the scenery....evan price wrote:Signs? What signs? I didn't see a sign.
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"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." ~ Mike Vanderboegh
NRA member, NRA basic pistol instructor, DBACB
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Re: Unless authorized by law
... and breakin my mind...pirateguy191 wrote:The ones that are blockin out the scenery....evan price wrote:Signs? What signs? I didn't see a sign.
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Re: Unless authorized by law
Hmm. Got a lot of old geezers on this forum. Only old geezers know the lyrics to songs like thatTJW815 wrote:... and breakin my mind...pirateguy191 wrote:The ones that are blockin out the scenery....evan price wrote:Signs? What signs? I didn't see a sign.
Give em' Hell Pike!!!
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Re: Unless authorized by law
Do this. Don't do that.TJW815 wrote:... and breakin my mind...pirateguy191 wrote:The ones that are blockin out the scenery....evan price wrote:Signs? What signs? I didn't see a sign.
Can't you read the sign?
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