Public Libraries

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charliej47
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Public Libraries

Post by charliej47 »

Guy,

I was asked about the Public Libraries and about carrying.

My answer was that I thought they were considered "government buildings" and as such were prohibited. Did I get it right?
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Brian D.
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Re: Public Libraries

Post by Brian D. »

With regards to concealed carry you're absolutely correct that they are off limits. A fair amount of us believe that OPEN carry would be legal in many government buildings, excepting courts, detention facilities, and law enforcement stations. Mostly we haven't risked arrest by trying that out.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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Werz
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Re: Public Libraries

Post by Werz »

Brian D. wrote:With regards to concealed carry you're absolutely correct that they are off limits. A fair amount of us believe that OPEN carry would be legal in many government buildings, excepting courts, detention facilities, and law enforcement stations. Mostly we haven't risked arrest by trying that out.
Those of us who know how the criminal justice system works believe the following: If the library has the standardized R.C. 2923.1212 sign posted at the door and you openly carry a handgun through the door, you will be asked to leave. If you refuse to leave, the police will be called. If you refuse to leave at the behest of the police, you will be arrested and charged with Criminal Trespass. At trial, you will not be permitted to argue some novel legal position; the jury will be instructed on the elements of Criminal Trespass, probably under R.C. 2911.21(C)(4), and the jury will be shown a photograph of the gunbuster sign to let them decide if you violated the notice given by that sign. And if the jury believes that you ignored that sign, believing instead that you were somehow justified ignoring it, they will look at the plain words of the sign, and they will look at the plain words of the Criminal Trespass statute, and they will find you guilty. At that point, you will be at the mercy of the appellate courts, who will look at R.C. 2923.1212 and R.C. 2911.21 and probably say, "The language is pretty plain, and it looks pretty simple to us."

But you're always free to try. Understand the risk.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
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Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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charliej47
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Re: Public Libraries

Post by charliej47 »

Do you guys think that the new gun bill will change this?
Charles Johnson Jr
12GA. pump - Home defense
40 Cal. Main Carry
380 BUG
22lr Live fire practice
The Second Amendment is about the right to be able to protect oneself from all who would do us harm including Legislators!
I came into this world screaming and covered in someone Else's blood, don't care if I go out the same way

Everyone who receives the protection of society owes a return for the benefit. John Stuart Mill, On Liberty
(English economist & philosopher. 1806 - 1873)
Brian D.
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Re: Public Libraries

Post by Brian D. »

Werz wrote:
Brian D. wrote:With regards to concealed carry you're absolutely correct that they are off limits. A fair amount of us believe that OPEN carry would be legal in many government buildings, excepting courts, detention facilities, and law enforcement stations. Mostly we haven't risked arrest by trying that out.
Those of us who know how the criminal justice system works believe the following: If the library has the standardized R.C. 2923.1212 sign posted at the door and you openly carry a handgun through the door, you will be asked to leave. If you refuse to leave, the police will be called. If you refuse to leave at the behest of the police, you will be arrested and charged with Criminal Trespass. At trial, you will not be permitted to argue some novel legal position; the jury will be instructed on the elements of Criminal Trespass, probably under R.C. 2911.21(C)(4), and the jury will be shown a photograph of the gunbuster sign to let them decide if you violated the notice given by that sign. And if the jury believes that you ignored that sign, believing instead that you were somehow justified ignoring it, they will look at the plain words of the sign, and they will look at the plain words of the Criminal Trespass statute, and they will find you guilty. At that point, you will be at the mercy of the appellate courts, who will look at R.C. 2923.1212 and R.C. 2911.21 and probably say, "The language is pretty plain, and it looks pretty simple to us."

But you're always free to try. Understand the risk.


I might someday. Who knows, there could be a world-wise jury member that realizes the truth of what I'm about to mention in the remainder of this paragraph, who refuses to cast a guilty vote against me at such a trial. Meanwhile I'll just enjoy the irony of crossing a bridge and suddenly being in a state, Kentucky (which by the way has never vetted my background like Ohio has) that says it's okey dokey for me to carry in most all of their government buildings at state county and local level. If not concealed, at least openly. Cross our western boundary with Indiana and it's almost the same exact story. Ridiculousness.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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JustaShooter
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Re: Public Libraries

Post by JustaShooter »

charliej47 wrote:Do you guys think that the new gun bill will change this?
The new bill gives cities the option of passing local ordinances to allow carry in government facilities, like libraries - but I sure wouldn't count on any of them doing so...
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Re: Public Libraries

Post by Brian D. »

JustaShooter wrote:
charliej47 wrote:Do you guys think that the new gun bill will change this?
The new bill gives cities the option of passing local ordinances to allow carry in government facilities, like libraries - but I sure wouldn't count on any of them doing so...
Okay there's another problem: Some libraries are county AND city based, or just county based. Who would have to pass those "local level" opt-ins to allow guns? The OGA has sure put on a goat
rope these last two years.

Example: Down here it's known as "The Public Library of Cincinnati and Hamilton County", I think. Branches in several communities that are NOT within Cincy. So, will a few, some, most, or all (NOT!) of the towns the branches are in pass ordinances to allow carry?
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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slowquest
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Re: Public Libraries

Post by slowquest »

Werz, so in my understanding, carrying openly in this case would result in an M4 Criminal Trespass charge, but what would the charge be for carrying concealed in the same building? I'm missing the "Whoever violates this section is guilty of" part of that section....
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
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Re: Public Libraries

Post by JustaShooter »

slowquest wrote:Werz, so in my understanding, carrying openly in this case would result in an M4 Criminal Trespass charge, but what would the charge be for carrying concealed in the same building? I'm missing the "Whoever violates this section is guilty of" part of that section....
Well I'm not Werz but in case he doesn't revisit this thread soon, I think you need to look to ORC 2923.12 (F) for the penalty:
(F)

(1) Whoever violates this section is guilty of carrying concealed weapons. Except as otherwise provided in this division or division (F)(2) of this section, carrying concealed weapons in violation of division (A) of this section is a misdemeanor of the first degree. Except as otherwise provided in this division or division (F)(2) of this section, if the offender previously has been convicted of a violation of this section or of any offense of violence, if the weapon involved is a firearm that is either loaded or for which the offender has ammunition ready at hand, or if the weapon involved is dangerous ordnance, carrying concealed weapons in violation of division (A) of this section is a felony of the fourth degree. Except as otherwise provided in division (F)(2) of this section, if the offense is committed aboard an aircraft, or with purpose to carry a concealed weapon aboard an aircraft, regardless of the weapon involved, carrying concealed weapons in violation of division (A) of this section is a felony of the third degree.
If I'm wrong, I'm sure Werz or one of the other more knowledgeable folks will correct me.
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Re: Public Libraries

Post by glocksmith »

Brian D. wrote:Okay there's another problem: Some libraries are county AND city based, or just county based. Who would have to pass those "local level" opt-ins to allow guns? Example: Down here it's known as "The Public Library of Cincinnati and Hamilton County", I think. Branches in several communities that are NOT within Cincy. So, will a few, some, most, or all (NOT!) of the towns the branches are in pass ordinances to allow carry?
My Hamilton Co. Public Library branch removed the no-guns signage from the doors...a few years ago. AFAIK it isn't illegal to carry there. As far as I'm concerned, I can wear my gun while visiting.
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Re: Public Libraries

Post by Brian D. »

glocksmith wrote:
Brian D. wrote:Okay there's another problem: Some libraries are county AND city based, or just county based. Who would have to pass those "local level" opt-ins to allow guns? Example: Down here it's known as "The Public Library of Cincinnati and Hamilton County", I think. Branches in several communities that are NOT within Cincy. So, will a few, some, most, or all (NOT!) of the towns the branches are in pass ordinances to allow carry?
My Hamilton Co. Public Library branch removed the no-guns signage from the doors...a few years ago. AFAIK it isn't illegal to carry there. As far as I'm concerned, I can wear my gun while visiting.
Well, the library is still a government (funded) entity regardless of the signage or lack thereof. I know that here in HamCo, when the indoor smoking ban passed circa 2007, the library branches were the VERY FIRST places I saw putting up big 'No Smoking' signage, even though it hadn't been legal to smoke inside one for umptyeight years, according to my dad and several other old timers I asked. Goofy.

Now just as a fun comparison: Over in northern Kentucky, their statewide preemption has been in place with a certain amount of "teeth" for a few years now. Maybe four years back, Covington/Kenton County was getting ready to massively remodel their main branch library. At the time they had signage prohibiting carry inside, which referenced a Covington ordinance that did not actually exist. When I called them out the signs were quietly removed, never to be replaced when the giant remodel was finished. If the stronger preemption had been in place before the rebuild, I could have likely gotten a public official in some BIG trouble over that false signage.

Here in Ohio that's never really been a concern for government officials. And with the lack of spine currently being shown by the Ohio General Assembly, it never will be easy to call out a political subdivision of any sort that posts unlawfully.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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Werz
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Re: Public Libraries

Post by Werz »

JustaShooter wrote:
slowquest wrote:Werz, so in my understanding, carrying openly in this case would result in an M4 Criminal Trespass charge, but what would the charge be for carrying concealed in the same building? I'm missing the "Whoever violates this section is guilty of" part of that section....
Well I'm not Werz but in case he doesn't revisit this thread soon, I think you need to look to ORC 2923.12 (F) for the penalty:
(F)(1) Whoever violates this section is guilty of carrying concealed weapons. Except as otherwise provided in this division or division (F)(2) of this section, carrying concealed weapons in violation of division (A) of this section is a misdemeanor of the first degree. Except as otherwise provided in this division or division (F)(2) of this section, if the offender previously has been convicted of a violation of this section or of any offense of violence, if the weapon involved is a firearm that is either loaded or for which the offender has ammunition ready at hand, or if the weapon involved is dangerous ordnance, carrying concealed weapons in violation of division (A) of this section is a felony of the fourth degree. Except as otherwise provided in division (F)(2) of this section, if the offense is committed aboard an aircraft, or with purpose to carry a concealed weapon aboard an aircraft, regardless of the weapon involved, carrying concealed weapons in violation of division (A) of this section is a felony of the third degree.
If I'm wrong, I'm sure Werz or one of the other more knowledgeable folks will correct me.
You're right, but the more relevant provision is this:
R.C. 2923.126(B) *** A valid license does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun into any of the following places:
***
(9) Any building that is a government facility of this state or a political subdivision of this state and that is not a building that is used primarily as a shelter, restroom, parking facility for motor vehicles, or rest facility and is not a courthouse or other building or structure in which a courtroom is located that is subject to division (B)(3) of this section[.]
Simply put, your CHL doesn't apply in the public library, and you're back to the traditional Carrying Concealed Weapons.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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JustaShooter
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Re: Public Libraries

Post by JustaShooter »

Werz wrote:
JustaShooter wrote:
slowquest wrote:Werz, so in my understanding, carrying openly in this case would result in an M4 Criminal Trespass charge, but what would the charge be for carrying concealed in the same building? I'm missing the "Whoever violates this section is guilty of" part of that section....
Well I'm not Werz but in case he doesn't revisit this thread soon, I think you need to look to ORC 2923.12 (F) for the penalty:
(F)(1) Whoever violates this section is guilty of carrying concealed weapons. Except as otherwise provided in this division or division (F)(2) of this section, carrying concealed weapons in violation of division (A) of this section is a misdemeanor of the first degree. Except as otherwise provided in this division or division (F)(2) of this section, if the offender previously has been convicted of a violation of this section or of any offense of violence, if the weapon involved is a firearm that is either loaded or for which the offender has ammunition ready at hand, or if the weapon involved is dangerous ordnance, carrying concealed weapons in violation of division (A) of this section is a felony of the fourth degree. Except as otherwise provided in division (F)(2) of this section, if the offense is committed aboard an aircraft, or with purpose to carry a concealed weapon aboard an aircraft, regardless of the weapon involved, carrying concealed weapons in violation of division (A) of this section is a felony of the third degree.
If I'm wrong, I'm sure Werz or one of the other more knowledgeable folks will correct me.
You're right, but the more relevant provision is this:
R.C. 2923.126(B) *** A valid license does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun into any of the following places:
***
(9) Any building that is a government facility of this state or a political subdivision of this state and that is not a building that is used primarily as a shelter, restroom, parking facility for motor vehicles, or rest facility and is not a courthouse or other building or structure in which a courtroom is located that is subject to division (B)(3) of this section[.]
Simply put, your CHL doesn't apply in the public library, and you're back to the traditional Carrying Concealed Weapons.
Thanks for the confirmation and clarification, Werz!
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Re: Public Libraries

Post by slowquest »

OK, thanks for the replies. I guess I just read that different than it means.

F)(1) Whoever violates this section is guilty of carrying concealed weapons. Except as otherwise provided in this division or division (F)(2) of this section, carrying concealed weapons in violation of division (A) of this section is a misdemeanor of the first degree. Except as otherwise provided in this division or division (F)(2) of this section, if the offender previously has been convicted of a violation of this section or of any offense of violence,(is there an implied "or" here? I read it as an "and" due to just the comma and having the "or" in the following) if the weapon involved is a firearm that is either loaded or for which the offender has ammunition ready at hand, OR (emphasis added) if the weapon involved is dangerous ordnance, carrying concealed weapons in violation of division (A) of this section is a felony of the fourth degree. Except as otherwise provided in division (F)(2) of this section, if the offense is committed aboard an aircraft, or with purpose to carry a concealed weapon aboard an aircraft, regardless of the weapon involved, carrying concealed weapons in violation of division (A) of this section is a felony of the third degree.
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
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Re: Public Libraries

Post by AzRanger »

All the libraries I've been to have No guns signs! :x
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