When to Draw Your Gun

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carmen fovozzo
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Re: When to Draw Your Gun

Post by carmen fovozzo »

TSiWRX wrote:
robbo wrote: Its just bothersome to know that any time a firearm is drawn, even if for just cause, its going to be time to 'attorney up' if law enforcement gets called. And needing to go to court is a crap shoot.
Being righteous isn't always easy. :)

There's multiple layers of defense that we must have ready for that violent encounter, and it should include the aftermath as well.

I agree, it sucks. It totally sucks. But it's the reality of the world we live in today.
THIS.
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carmen fovozzo
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Re: When to Draw Your Gun

Post by carmen fovozzo »

Ray81 wrote:Condition 1 and drawing your handgun.

If you escalate a confrontation by throwing the first punch, attacking, or drawing your handgun, you are the aggressor. Most likely in this situation, you cannot legitimately claim self-defense nor would you
likely succeed in proving your affirmative defense.

I think displaying your handgun by lifting your shirt is legally ok since ohio is an open carry state.. but I wouldn't touch my gun unless I'm physically attacked, but if BG already has a weapon drawn and walking towards me.. then I'm in fear for my life. My 2c.
You can expose your gun w/o drawing it....won't make any difference....your assailant will lie to the police and say you had it pointed at him......had that happened to me once....idiot told the police I waved my gun out the window of my car at him....he didn't know I had a gun till I was at my business in the parking lot dumping my rubbish....then he was at gun point...he came close to dieing that day...glad it turned out OKAY...
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Re: When to Draw Your Gun

Post by WestonDon »

"drawing your gun" does not have to be an either/or choice. Big difference between drawing to low ready and drawing and assuming a shooting posture. I would do the former when a threat is perceived as possible but not certain (in my mind). The latter when the threat is certain and imminent (again in my mind).
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Re: When to Draw Your Gun

Post by robbo »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:Here's an odd scenario...

https://blog.hsoi.com/2016/09/14/you-ju ... cordingly/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
odd indeed...thanks for the story.
My view on things are 'dont get involved in anything that does not threaten my own safety' In other words...mind my own business.
Noone knows why or what happened to cause the altercation and how does one determine whos the bad guy and whos the good guy?
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Re: When to Draw Your Gun

Post by robbo »

Aesinsp wrote:Check out shoot - no shoot scenarios online too.

I've had the chance to see some of these from the Armed Response series of DVDs and have found them eye opening.. :shock:
http://www.armedresponsetraining.com/pr ... vts005.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Shows such as 'The Best Defense' (Outdoor channel) also touch on these scenarios and usually show multiple possible outcomes of such situations. They can also be found online.
Thanks for the info...its always good to view and/or read about these types of situations.
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Re: When to Draw Your Gun

Post by robbo »

Aesinsp wrote: Shows such as 'The Best Defense' (Outdoor channel) also touch on these scenarios and usually show multiple possible outcomes of such situations. They can also be found online.
informative program Thanks!
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Re: When to Draw Your Gun

Post by TSiWRX »

carmen fovozzo wrote: You can expose your gun w/o drawing it....won't make any difference....your assailant will lie to the police and say you had it pointed at him......had that happened to me once....idiot told the police I waved my gun out the window of my car at him....he didn't know I had a gun till I was at my business in the parking lot dumping my rubbish....then he was at gun point...he came close to dieing that day...glad it turned out OKAY...
^ Carmen has actual experience here, folks. It's wise to take some lessons from his experience, which is pretty much also what most modern trainers/schools teach.

It's the first one to 911 that is most often noted as the victim/complainant/plaintiff, "on the side of the road."

And even then, there's still no guaranty.

It's a game of he-said/she-said, and we should all understand just how seriously this game may potentially play out.
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Re: When to Draw Your Gun

Post by robbo »

Thanks for the replies. You all gave enough info to point me in the right direction and I have been researching.
I will always keep in mind that every bullet and altercation involving a firearm has an attorney attached to it.
Be safe, and wise everyone!
Thanks again
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Re: When to Draw Your Gun

Post by kSetuni »

TSiWRX wrote:Ability. Opportunity. Jeopardy. Preclusion.

My firearm is lethal force. If I bring it into play, it is because I am actively fearing for my life. It is not an amulet to ward off evil. It's neither a bluff nor a threat. It is there to protect my life, period.

If my gun is coming out, the foregone conclusion in my mind is that it's a deadly force scenario, and that I am ready to employ deadly force.

We've crossed that line, burned that bridge.

If as the muzzle is pointing towards that threat or even if he/she/they decide to turn-tail and run away up to the very point before my trigger breaks, sure, I'd be most glad to disengage and -NOT- break that trigger and send that bullet towards them. If they cease to be a threat, I'll cease to treat them as one.

My firearm is lethal force that's used to stop a lethal threat against me.
This is exactly it. If I'm drawing, its due to a threat of my life, and to engage that threat. If they decide to disengage as soon as I draw, then the phone comes out and calling 911.

If I'm concerned enough to consider the need to draw, then phone is already out and calling 911. The first caller is usually the victim and generally innocent unless proven otherwise. The phone is my first tool of choice if possible.

At no point am I revealing that I am armed and showing my firearm in any way, until the need to engage a threat. It is not a toy, a way to scare someone etc. Its not hard for someone to lie and put you into a bad situation by fabricating lies about the firearm they now know you have.This is one reason I have heard many say they carry unusual firearms such as revolvers, two tone, or other colored guns so the only way a person can say what was drawn is when it actually was.

Armed aviators advice is certainly one to get you into trouble and into a bad situation.
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Re: When to Draw Your Gun

Post by Buckeyedoc »

TSiWRX wrote:Ability. Opportunity. Jeopardy. Preclusion.

My firearm is lethal force. If I bring it into play, it is because I am actively fearing for my life. It is not an amulet to ward off evil. It's neither a bluff nor a threat. It is there to protect my life, period.

If my gun is coming out, the foregone conclusion in my mind is that it's a deadly force scenario, and that I am ready to employ deadly force.

We've crossed that line, burned that bridge.

If as the muzzle is pointing towards that threat or even if he/she/they decide to turn-tail and run away up to the very point before my trigger breaks, sure, I'd be most glad to disengage and -NOT- break that trigger and send that bullet towards them. If they cease to be a threat, I'll cease to treat them as one.

My firearm is lethal force that's used to stop a lethal threat against me.
This. Can't state that any better.
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Re: When to Draw Your Gun

Post by Sevens »

I also very much like the above quoted text. There is one part of this entire subject that hasn't been mentioned (unless I missed it...?) that is a large part of the question for me.

For me, it's not at all about the safety and well-being of the person who has me feeling uncomfortable. He has a God looking out for him (whether he agrees or realizes or not) and his well-being isn't anywhere near the top of my list. My life is at the top of my list and in spot #2 is my future day-to-day. In other words, the second most important thing to me at the time of a confrontation is that I don't have to spend the rest of my day, week, month, year, decade or longer dealing with the aftermath of this bad person's fate.

My point?! This question is asked, "when to draw your gun?" and my answer is that disparity of force can be EXTREMELY variable across all of us participants in this thread. I think it makes an awful lot of sense to see where you sit in that disparity (or where you may APPEAR that you sit...) and make that a part of the equation.

Multiple adversaries? Visible weapon(s)? Are you 70+ years old with genuine, known physical ailments or disabilities? Are you a woman with a small child and standing opposite a 6'-3', 285 lb man?
Or better yet... are you a 29 year old 6', 185 lb male who plays B-league hockey in a local rec league?

See where I'm going here? Because later in the aftermath, it's other people who get the luxury of judging what you should have done in that situation.
And if you are thinking "WOW, that is an awful lot to consider and attempt to process in the matter of seconds...", well, you would be correct.
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Re: When to Draw Your Gun

Post by carmen fovozzo »

70+ with a disability ? Being 73 yrs. old in itself is a disability..
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Re: When to Draw Your Gun

Post by TSiWRX »

Sevens wrote: My point?! This question is asked, "when to draw your gun?" and my answer is that disparity of force can be EXTREMELY variable across all of us participants in this thread. I think it makes an awful lot of sense to see where you sit in that disparity (or where you may APPEAR that you sit...) and make that a part of the equation.
^ +1.

By definition, this fits the "Ability" section of the four point considerations of AJOP.

It cannot be stressed enough - and Sevens is absolutely right in pointing this out - that such disparities should not be a part of some magical plug-and-play equation. That this is very different for each of us as individuals.
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Re: When to Draw Your Gun

Post by ArmedPatriots »

robbo wrote:This has never happened to me, but at what point do you draw your firearm?
I know its put distance, avoid and retreat if possible, but what if some thug keeps following you after you told him to back off and your avoiding the situation? I dont want to pull my gun unless absolutely necessary, but how would you get this thug to back off if he kept persuing?
If I were to verbally warn him to back off and he keep mouthing and following I better be on high alert, but at what point would you draw your gun? could be a possible shootout situation.
This is just something that came to mind and wanted to see what other CCW people thought and if there is any 'true' answer or law for this type of scenerio. Thanks!
Ive not drawn my gun yet..havent had to, but I have had cases where someone was, for instance, about to clobber me with a golf club.
He was charging at me with club in hand because he was {inappropriate language} I called the clubhouse because they had NINE people on the green talking for 15 minutes instead of playing on a very busy day. This guy knows the rules because hes out there all the time. He was one of those clowns that thinks he owns the course.
He asked who called, I told him I did so he wouldnt go after one of guys I was grouped with who had nothing to do with it.
He starts cussing, grabs a 9 iron or some other high lofted short club and literally was charging at me.
My NAA 22 mag was in my pocket...it has the flip grip that clips on your pants or whatever.
I took a weaver type stance, put my thumb in my pocket to make it clear that I was readying myself for whatever he was planning and asked him while it was coming at me "are you intending on assaulting me?"
he stopped dead in his tracks and asked me 'what?"
I asked him again, still in my stance, 'Are you intending on assaulting me?"
At that point it was clear that he knew what was about to go down.
I never had to draw, show or make a threat or anything. He figured it out. I wasnt about to take a damned golf club to the head by him and over half a dozen of his buddies for craps and giggles.

I would never draw my gun unless there is no other option....but there ARE ways to let someone know that you are armed without actually saying it or threatening anyone, which could be a menacing charge.

One of the guys I was grouped with used to be a LEO and was currently working security type stuff.
I asked him how I handled it. He seemed to think it was just fine....and thought the guys behavior was hilarious, but definitely threatening
Isnt it ironic that the anti gun agenda response to defenseless people being murdered is to try to make them even more defenseless...
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