proving you're qualified with every gun you carry?

This forum is for discussion of general issues regarding Concealed Carry in your everyday life. This forum is not intended to be political or for discussing legislation.

Moderators: Chuck, Mustang380gal, Coordinators, Moderators

M-Quigley
Posts: 4780
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:06 pm
Location: Western Ohio

proving you're qualified with every gun you carry?

Post by M-Quigley »

Someone who recently took a CCW course in Ohio mentioned to me that someone had commented to them about how the course she took was too basic and in his opinion, although she might be legally qualified, she should also take several advanced training course. The odd thing though about the advice wasn't based on better surviving a violent encounter, which makes sense, but that it would look better in court to be able to say you shoot at this documented skill level. There was also a statement that if someone qualified with one type of handgun and later on carry another, they should actually pay someone like an instructor to sign off if she later carried a different handgun. Documenting it herself wasn't good enough, unless maybe it was unedited video. There was also that she should only use the FBI standard as being qualified, because he read something on the internet where the OPOTA course for Ohio police officers is so lax a blindfolded person can pass it. This is the link that implies this.

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/s ... ation-test" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Although the FBI course has some 25 yard shots, it doesn't require you get every shot on target either. I think the last time I read the FBI stats, 90% of handgun defensive shootings were 7 yards or less, and less than 5% (somewhere around there) were at 25 yards or greater.

This link makes an assumption that proof of technical ability with a firearm is somehow going to help in a charge dealing with why the gun was used or intent. I question this line of reasoning. Some of the biggest criminals in history were good shots, so what?
If you have to shoot someone in self defense and your abilities are questioned by the court, it makes a pretty powerful statement to say:

“As a responsible gun owner, I didn’t feel comfortable carrying my gun in public until my skill level was at least as good as the police officers who patrol my community. I took several training classes and I successfully completed the state’s police pistol qualification course. Here’s the target to prove it.”

That might shut down any line of questioning that disparages your skill set or paints you as someone who is “reckless” or “wants to shoot someone.”
Is Ohio's LE qualification really that bad? I know I could never have done it blindfolded, at least at the 50 feet distance, but then I never wanted to miss the target completely either, even if I could get possibly get a passing score. Although I'm not opposed to anyone actually doing any of the above if they desire, just how important is it really for every CHL holder to do this with every gun they might carry? Obviously if it was a situation where someone shot an innocent person accidentally it might be an issue. Is anyone aware however of any actual court cases where a persons alleged qualifications or marksmanship was an issue in a deliberate intentional shooting situation?
User avatar
deanimator
Posts: 7863
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:34 pm
Location: Rocky River

Re: proving you're qualified with every gun you carry?

Post by deanimator »

Here's what you REALLY need to show:
  1. You weren't the aggressor or otherwise involved in criminal activity which provoked the conflict.
  2. You had a reasonable and immediate fear of death or great bodily harm.
  3. If not in home or vehicle, you attempted to disengage, if that was possible in perfect safety.
  4. You shoot the right person or persons and nobody else.
  5. You ceased the use of deadly force as soon as the threat was neutralized.
If you can't meet those criteria, winning the Steel Challenge and the Wimbledon at Camp Perry won't help.
Life comes at you fast. Be prepared to shoot it in the head when it does.
Brian D.
Posts: 16229
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: SW Ohio

Re: proving you're qualified with every gun you carry?

Post by Brian D. »

Whatever helps somebody sleep at night. I flat wouldn't be bothered to do this, as over the course of time my carry choices change. Truth be told, there's a second, similar or identical copy of what I pack, stowed on the vehicle, more often than not. I have yet to misplace a gun while out and about, but maybe a range trip reveals a problem with my belt blaster. For me that doesn't mean running home to pick up the spare. It's in the trunk.

That said I've got a few certs from shooting schools and trophies from matches around if the legal system is trying to squeeze me after a defensive incident. And some character witnesses that know I'm more than barely competent behind a trigger.

I see your acquaintance as over thinking things here, guess if she only ever carries the same couple/three firearms, some sort of documentation is okay. But that can be a hindrance and could be exploited by an attorney of the ambulance chasing variety: "So, Ms. Doe, you qualified as expert..." and then blindsides her with questions that even the chief engineer of Smith and Wesson couldn't answer about her M&P Shield.

To me it's akin to purchasing too much insurance, at some point.

Nice reply above me, deanimator!
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

********************************************************************************
1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
carmen fovozzo
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 19033
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:08 am
Location: NEO

Re: proving you're qualified with every gun you carry?

Post by carmen fovozzo »

I believe Navada CHL you have to carry what you take the test with..
Life is full of God given coincidences..
A MEMBER OF OFCC SINCE 2004...
Thanks for shopping at Charmin Carmens
User avatar
DontTreadOnMe
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 1750
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 11:11 am
Location: SW Ohio

Re: proving you're qualified with every gun you carry?

Post by DontTreadOnMe »

M-Quigley wrote:Someone who recently took a CCW course in Ohio mentioned to me that someone had commented to them about how the course she took was too basic and in his opinion, although she might be legally qualified, she should also take several advanced training course.
Either that person offers such courses, or has taken several himself and is "mentally committed" to the idea.
Extra training isn't a bad idea (well, depending on the training) but it's not necessary.
M-Quigley wrote:There was also a statement that if someone qualified with one type of handgun and later on carry another, they should actually pay someone like an instructor to sign off if she later carried a different handgun.
I heard this recently, from an instructor who is ex-LEO. He believes this because it's what he's familiar with from his time in law enforcement. To me that's a big red flag: It suggests he has blinders as far as appropriate training for armed civilians must be the same as his LEO experience.
If you have to shoot someone in self defense and your abilities are questioned by the court, it makes a pretty powerful statement to say:

“As a responsible gun owner, I didn’t feel comfortable carrying my gun in public until my skill level was at least as good as the police officers who patrol my community. I took several training classes and I successfully completed the state’s police pistol qualification course. Here’s the target to prove it.”

That might shut down any line of questioning that disparages your skill set or paints you as someone who is “reckless” or “wants to shoot someone.”
See deanimator's comment. There's nothing wrong with being able to pass the OPOTA course of fire or even the FBI course of fire, but any lawyer who would use your skill level against you would use this against you too ("You think you're law enforcement."). If you do this, do it for yourself, not because you might need that level of documentation in court (you won't; it might help, but probably won't matter either way).
User avatar
dl1911
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 1617
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:47 pm
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: proving you're qualified with every gun you carry?

Post by dl1911 »

We shot the OPOTA pistol qualification once at a local club on IDPA night and I thought it was extremely easy. Only 2 shots are at 50ft and you can miss both and still pass. Even then, you've got 8 seconds to draw and fire 2 shots! If you had been sitting outside, you'd here the start timer go beep followed fairly quickly by the shots and then a long pause waiting for it to signal the end (beep, short pause, bang, bang, very long pause, beep).

Don't think there should be any qualifications and am a supported of constitutional carry. If we need to prove we can shoot well, why don't we also have to prove we can think and be articulate before speaking? Prove an understanding of basic logic, English, and the subject matter before being allowed to write, have your writing printed, or even post online. Somehow many have accepted that the right to keep and bear arms is subject to fees, licenses, taxes, and other limitations and costs. Pay to get a license just to own a firearm (which is still the case in some states)? How is that different than a poll tax to be able to vote? Or the literacy requirements once used to limit voting?

I did talk to a former police trainer, and as easy as we all thought it was, yes there are those who have trouble passing it every year.

For those that are curious, here's a link to the pistol qualification:

http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/File ... -Fire.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dale
11101110111
1911 & IDPA Fan(atic), SIG Fan, and fan of less common calibers
User avatar
pirateguy191
Posts: 11009
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:06 pm
Location: 44146

Re: proving you're qualified with every gun you carry?

Post by pirateguy191 »

At TDI this spring for Fun N Gun, we had about 20 people on the line to perform the OPOTA qualification shoot. I think we all got 100%
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem." - Ronald Reagan

"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." ~ Mike Vanderboegh

NRA member, NRA basic pistol instructor, DBACB
User avatar
Mr. Glock
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 8965
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:20 pm
Location: NE Ohio

Re: proving you're qualified with every gun you carry?

Post by Mr. Glock »

Unfortunetely, and much to the media's chagrin if they ever investigated it, the vast majority of police are not all that familiar with their weapons and don't train very much. And that is not my opinion, that is the opinion of a number of vaguely gun-interested LEOs.

They may be great at other things and wonderful at law enforcement. But, for most, the actual training is an after-thought.

I don't get to the range all that much, but I do like to squeeze off 100-200 rounds per month. For many LEO, that is a full year of shooting.

Paper tiger, and all that.

So, I'm not sure that is the standard we should judge ourselves as a CHL. Plus, we do not have a union and the public purse behind us. For a large city, training is expensive, lawsuits cheap. See: NYPD. Not for the CHL, whole different ball game.
OFCC Patron, GOA, SAF, YouTube 2A Patreon, NRA Benefactor Life & Hot Stove League Member
User avatar
JustaShooter
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
Posts: 5800
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:08 pm
Location: Akron/Canton Area

Re: proving you're qualified with every gun you carry?

Post by JustaShooter »

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
M-Quigley wrote:There was also a statement that if someone qualified with one type of handgun and later on carry another, they should actually pay someone like an instructor to sign off if she later carried a different handgun.
I heard this recently, from an instructor who is ex-LEO.
There is an instructor in my area, also ex-LEO, that tells each of his classes that they need to be able to show they qualified with every handgun they carry - not just every type, or even every model - every single gun, including duplicates. And, of course, he offers to certify you have qualified for (if I recall correctly) $40 per gun...
Christian, Husband, Father
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Pistol & Rifle Instructor

Want to become more active with OFCC and help fight for your rights? Click Here!
Brian D.
Posts: 16229
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: SW Ohio

Re: proving you're qualified with every gun you carry?

Post by Brian D. »

pirateguy191 wrote:At TDI this spring for Fun N Gun, we had about 20 people on the line to perform the OPOTA qualification shoot. I think we all got 100%
Pretty sure all squads did the same thing at that station. Probably more 100% scores than not, overall.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

********************************************************************************
1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
User avatar
Bianchi?
Posts: 1541
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Akron, Ohio

Re: proving you're qualified with every gun you carry?

Post by Bianchi? »

pirateguy191 wrote:At TDI this spring for Fun N Gun, we had about 20 people on the line to perform the OPOTA qualification shoot. I think we all got 100%
A friend that was with me sent two shots really wide and only scored a 20 out of 25.

He still hasn't heard the end of it.
I've had consistently good results with ether.
M-Quigley
Posts: 4780
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:06 pm
Location: Western Ohio

Re: proving you're qualified with every gun you carry?

Post by M-Quigley »

deanimator wrote:Here's what you REALLY need to show:
  1. You weren't the aggressor or otherwise involved in criminal activity which provoked the conflict.
  2. You had a reasonable and immediate fear of death or great bodily harm.
  3. If not in home or vehicle, you attempted to disengage, if that was possible in perfect safety.
  4. You shoot the right person or persons and nobody else.
  5. You ceased the use of deadly force as soon as the threat was neutralized.
If you can't meet those criteria, winning the Steel Challenge and the Wimbledon at Camp Perry won't help.
Those points were essentially what I told her at the time, as far as the legal aspect of a post shooting situation. Of the people I've seen or read about who have been charged after a defensive gun use, the alleged problem wasn't their marksmanship.
M-Quigley
Posts: 4780
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:06 pm
Location: Western Ohio

Re: proving you're qualified with every gun you carry?

Post by M-Quigley »

Brian D. wrote:Whatever helps somebody sleep at night. I flat wouldn't be bothered to do this, as over the course of time my carry choices change. Truth be told, there's a second, similar or identical copy of what I pack, stowed on the vehicle, more often than not. I have yet to misplace a gun while out and about, but maybe a range trip reveals a problem with my belt blaster. For me that doesn't mean running home to pick up the spare. It's in the trunk.

That said I've got a few certs from shooting schools and trophies from matches around if the legal system is trying to squeeze me after a defensive incident. And some character witnesses that know I'm more than barely competent behind a trigger.

I see your acquaintance as over thinking things here, guess if she only ever carries the same couple/three firearms, some sort of documentation is okay. But that can be a hindrance and could be exploited by an attorney of the ambulance chasing variety: "So, Ms. Doe, you qualified as expert..." and then blindsides her with questions that even the chief engineer of Smith and Wesson couldn't answer about her M&P Shield.

To me it's akin to purchasing too much insurance, at some point.

Nice reply above me, deanimator!

I don't think the guy was referring to the exact same handgun, but completely different ones. She took her CHL course with a borrowed handgun, a compact 9 (Glock 19 I think) but she's carrying a snub nose 38. Also the longest distance she had to shoot with the nine was 5 yards. She has since practiced with the 38 at 5 yards, but she's not confident about shooting it at 25 yards. She doesn't want to carry a full size pistol just because it's easier to shoot at longer ranges or fire hundreds of rounds in some advanced tactical course, and I understand that.
M-Quigley
Posts: 4780
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:06 pm
Location: Western Ohio

Re: proving you're qualified with every gun you carry?

Post by M-Quigley »

JustaShooter wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
M-Quigley wrote:There was also a statement that if someone qualified with one type of handgun and later on carry another, they should actually pay someone like an instructor to sign off if she later carried a different handgun.
I heard this recently, from an instructor who is ex-LEO.
There is an instructor in my area, also ex-LEO, that tells each of his classes that they need to be able to show they qualified with every handgun they carry - not just every type, or even every model - every single gun, including duplicates. And, of course, he offers to certify you have qualified for (if I recall correctly) $40 per gun...


Oh of course. :roll: b.t.w., Since there's so much variation in Ohio CCW courses, what does he consider qualified? Any idea what his standard is?
walnut red
Posts: 1265
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:59 am
Location: Morrow County

Re: proving you're qualified with every gun you carry?

Post by walnut red »

If I am in court for successfully defending myself I suspect it will be my motives which are being challenged, not my ability.
Post Reply