Duty to notify
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- DontTreadOnMe
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Re: Duty to notify
I've said a lot against notification including how unreasonably severe the punishment is, as compared to other states and the punishment level of other crimes. While reviewing other states' policies & penalties on notification I realized that many states have a provision where the person is required to notify/provide ccw license if an officer asks for ID.
I'd rather notification went away completely, but I could accept that as a compromise. It gets rid of a lot of the vagueness in current Ohio law, and limits the required notification to the time when an investigative stop is clearly in-progress.
I'd rather notification went away completely, but I could accept that as a compromise. It gets rid of a lot of the vagueness in current Ohio law, and limits the required notification to the time when an investigative stop is clearly in-progress.
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Re: Duty to notify
My nephew is one of those "new hires". He was working at Point Blank full time. I know he misses carrying at work.Brian D. wrote:That sums it up nicely, docachna. I saw the aforementioned Cincinnati Parking Enforcement ticket writers out again downtown today, near my car. But I had time left, they were actually sort of waiting to pounce. Just before, they had tagged both a UPS and a mail truck; those of course will never be paid. Reason they were doing this? The male CPE employee was showing a new hire female the ropes.
I took a bit of my remaining time on the meter to listen to this verbal tripe about the imporetance of their work, then said hello to them. I asked a couple questions then decided the "encounter" had become "official", so I notified of my carry license and armed status, asking them how to proceed at that point.
I won't waste time posting the conversation, gist of it was the man made an extraordinary effort to assure me they weren't "law enforcement", in spite of their badges and uniform shirts that would lead many to think otherwise. He must have heard I'd done that notification thing to his colleagues in the past, and pointedly stated that I should NOT do it again in the future. (Don't worry, I know three or four genuine CPD officers in that part of the patrol area, I have told them about my act. They are greatly amused and promise it won't get me a ride to the Graybar Hotel.)
Anyhow, I "sincerely" apologized to the Parking Enforcement folks and said I'd put forth my best efforts to not make the same mistake again.
According to him the only asssociation with CPD is that their radios scan CPD dispatch.
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Re: Duty to notify
The Parking Enforcement badges are dead ringers for the ones used by the Cincinnati PD. I know they aren't actual LE but then again I'm pretty dang clever about such matters. Across Ohio (I've stated this before) the lines are sometimes blurred. Believe it is Franklin County Metroparks that have cruisers, uniforms, badges..but oddly, considering they're cops with arrest powers, no firearms. Other park rangers across Ohio are a similar mixed bag of LE and non-LE. More gray area regarding our notification requirement.
I'm not going to stop yanking this chain.
I'm not going to stop yanking this chain.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!
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1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
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1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
- ArmedPatriots
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Re: Duty to notify
I usually notify IF theyve gotten my attention for any reason. I just keep it casual.qmti wrote:Took the dog a walk along the country walk/bike path this morning. A Deputy Sheriff was patrolling the path on his bike saying "Hi or Good Morning" to people along the path. Even stopped to have conversations with people. He rode past me and said "Hi" but if he would have stopped to talk, would I have to notify him that I have a license and have my gun on me since it was not really a violation of some sort stop?
If I track them down for whatever reason I dont notify unless something comes up while talking to them that makes me think its a good idea.
I had a Franklin country deputy who was ok with CCW....but wanted to be notified above and beyond what the law prescribes.
He wasnt being a butthead or anything, but I stopped him and there was no 'law enforcement' purpose that he would have stopped me for.
I didnt tell him anything, but I know that he knew I was carrying and licensed because of the topic we were discussing.
He didnt press it though.
Another LEO I told this story to got pretty bent out of shape, saying it was none of the deputies business since he hadnt stopped me for anything.
Differnt LEOs seem to have very different views.....which makes me think we need to get rid of the requirement entirely.
As a law abiding citizen Im not threat to a cop...he doesnt need to know Im carrying....and if I were a bad guy I sure as hell wouldnt tell him anyway. So I dont understand the POINT of the requirement except as a poison pill to get someone who is law abiding in trouble for no good reason
Isnt it ironic that the anti gun agenda response to defenseless people being murdered is to try to make them even more defenseless...
- MyWifeSaidYes
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Re: Duty to notify
So, you DO understand the point.ArmedPatriots wrote:... So I dont understand the POINT of the requirement except as a poison pill to get someone who is law abiding in trouble for no good reason
MyWifeSaidYes
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Re: Duty to notify
I had a state trooper in Wilmington do the same. My CHL had expired ( I didn't tell him that as I didn't want the hassle with his attitude) and I was going to work at an airport and got stopped for speeding when passing a reckless vehicle on my motorcycle. The cop comes up and starts off with an attitude right from the start, goes back to his car to run my information. Then I see him running up. He is screaming at me asking where's the gun and I'm supposed to notify him that I had a gun. I calmly told him no sir I am only supposed to notify if I am armed, and I said nothing since I was not armed. He keeps berating me and acting like a complete jackass.ArmedPatriots wrote:qmti wrote: I had a Franklin country deputy who was ok with CCW....but wanted to be notified above and beyond what the law prescribes.
I looked at him and told him that I'm sorry he doesn't understand the laws he is trying to enforce but I have to know the laws better than the idiots trying to enforce them because that is the only way that I can protect my freedoms and rights. He continues screaming at me and asks if I wanted a ticket for failing to notify (again I was unarmed) I told him please do and be ready to meet me in court with his supervisors and I hope he enjoys losing some pay because I will clearly win. He comes back with a speeding ticket only. I ask him where the ticket for the failure to notify was? He responded with a smart assed remark. I said oh wait did you ask and found you that you were clearly wrong? Where si my apology for your attitude and berating me. He stormed off.
I made sure to file a complaint with his supervisor which I am sure was round filed. I hope the guy ws having a bad day, but his attitude from the start without reason showed he was one of the bad ones.
When I got my CHL renewed, the lady in Licking county was astonished and said she was glad it wasn't a licking sheriff as she would have made sure something was done since he clearly didn't know or understand the law.
I certainly hope that we can get the notify section removed at some point as it is too much of a grey area. Any contact with an officer, especially when in uniform, can be considered cause to notify since they are always on duty. If I am armed I'm going to err on the side of caution and notify just to avoid any problems later.
- ArmedPatriots
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Re: Duty to notify
MyWifeSaidYes wrote:So, you DO understand the point.ArmedPatriots wrote:... So I dont understand the POINT of the requirement except as a poison pill to get someone who is law abiding in trouble for no good reason
Isnt it ironic that the anti gun agenda response to defenseless people being murdered is to try to make them even more defenseless...
- ArmedPatriots
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Re: Duty to notify
On the point of LEOs not knowing the laws they are supposed to enforce....and let me state that I dont expect ANY human being to know the ORC by heart...I have another little story that really burned my noodles.
We live just on the edge of columbus city limits but just outside the Franklin County line, so we get city cops here, but the Sheriffs dept wont come here at all if you call them.
So we have had 4 or 5 neighbors move in over the years with very aggressive dogs. Ive almost thought I was going to have to put a couple of them down because they were growing and coming up on us like they were going to bite.
I Called the Cols PD and talked to an officer about it a few years ago. I explained the situation and since this was before I dug up the actual law in the ORC itself, I didnt know what I was allowed to do and when I could do it legally.
I asked her If a dog comes running up on me and is clearly intending on biting when could I use my gun or anything else to stop or kill the dog.
She was really nasty....clearly a dog owner by her response.....and pretty much made it sound like that even if the dog was actively biting it would still be against the law for me to shoot it. Thats not her words verbatim as its been a long time since the call, but you could tell she was against me using my gun on the dog at ANY point regardless. I think I asked her what Id have to do....shoot the dog in mid leap as it was flying to my leg with jaws open.
So I ended up finding ORC 955.28 myself online.
Its not a huge deal, but this officer could have caused someone to be literally mauled to death by making it seem like we'd go to prison or something if we shot a dog that was maybe ripping our kid apart.
We live just on the edge of columbus city limits but just outside the Franklin County line, so we get city cops here, but the Sheriffs dept wont come here at all if you call them.
So we have had 4 or 5 neighbors move in over the years with very aggressive dogs. Ive almost thought I was going to have to put a couple of them down because they were growing and coming up on us like they were going to bite.
I Called the Cols PD and talked to an officer about it a few years ago. I explained the situation and since this was before I dug up the actual law in the ORC itself, I didnt know what I was allowed to do and when I could do it legally.
I asked her If a dog comes running up on me and is clearly intending on biting when could I use my gun or anything else to stop or kill the dog.
She was really nasty....clearly a dog owner by her response.....and pretty much made it sound like that even if the dog was actively biting it would still be against the law for me to shoot it. Thats not her words verbatim as its been a long time since the call, but you could tell she was against me using my gun on the dog at ANY point regardless. I think I asked her what Id have to do....shoot the dog in mid leap as it was flying to my leg with jaws open.
So I ended up finding ORC 955.28 myself online.
Its not a huge deal, but this officer could have caused someone to be literally mauled to death by making it seem like we'd go to prison or something if we shot a dog that was maybe ripping our kid apart.
Isnt it ironic that the anti gun agenda response to defenseless people being murdered is to try to make them even more defenseless...
- pirateguy191
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Re: Duty to notify
If L.E. comes into your house, for law enforcement purposes, do you have to notify if concealed?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem." - Ronald Reagan
"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." ~ Mike Vanderboegh
NRA member, NRA basic pistol instructor, DBACB
"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." ~ Mike Vanderboegh
NRA member, NRA basic pistol instructor, DBACB
- schmieg
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Re: Duty to notify
Yes.pirateguy191 wrote:If L.E. comes into your house, for law enforcement purposes, do you have to notify if concealed?
-- Mike
"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand
"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand
- DontTreadOnMe
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Re: Duty to notify
Why? The duty to notify when carrying concealed comes from ORC 2923.12(B)(1) but 2923.12(C)(1)(d) statesschmieg wrote:Yes.pirateguy191 wrote:If L.E. comes into your house, for law enforcement purposes, do you have to notify if concealed?
(C)(1)This section does not apply to any of the following:
(d) A person's storage or possession of a firearm, other than a firearm described in divisions (G) to (M) of section 2923.11 of the Revised Code, in the actor's own home for any lawful purpose.
- schmieg
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Re: Duty to notify
But, look at 2923.126.DontTreadOnMe wrote:Why? The duty to notify when carrying concealed comes from ORC 2923.12(B)(1) but 2923.12(C)(1)(d) statesschmieg wrote:Yes.pirateguy191 wrote:If L.E. comes into your house, for law enforcement purposes, do you have to notify if concealed?
(C)(1)This section does not apply to any of the following:
(d) A person's storage or possession of a firearm, other than a firearm described in divisions (G) to (M) of section 2923.11 of the Revised Code, in the actor's own home for any lawful purpose.
-- Mike
"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand
"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand
- DontTreadOnMe
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Re: Duty to notify
Is there a penalty associated with 2923.126?schmieg wrote:But, look at 2923.126.
- schmieg
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Re: Duty to notify
Actually, we're getting into the weeds here. Your duties are set forth in 2923.126 and they are essentially the same as in 2923.12. The exemption in 2923.12 for the home applies to possession or storage, but that does not include the word carry. One can be in possession of a firearm even when the firearm is not on his person. Remember, the courts have made a big determination that you have the right to carry a firearm, but not the right to carry it concealed unless you have a license (a process initiated to get around the Supreme Court's decision). The exemption is not as broad as it initially appears.DontTreadOnMe wrote:Is there a penalty associated with 2923.126?schmieg wrote:But, look at 2923.126.
-- Mike
"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand
"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand
- DontTreadOnMe
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Re: Duty to notify
I don't think we are at all. I think it's obvious there's no way you can be (rightfully) charged with a crime for failing to notify when carrying concealed within your home.schmieg wrote:Actually, we're getting into the weeds here.DontTreadOnMe wrote:Is there a penalty associated with 2923.126?schmieg wrote:But, look at 2923.126.
So? One clearly is in possession of a firearm when it's on your person, therefore any exemption related to possession of a firearm necessarily includes a firearm that is on your person.schmieg wrote:The exemption in 2923.12 for the home applies to possession or storage, but that does not include the word carry. One can be in possession of a firearm even when the firearm is not on his person.
I'm not aware of a single court that has said that, in regards to home carry. There are several courts that have said you have a right to have a firearm in public but not necessarily have it concealed in public.schmieg wrote:Remember, the courts have made a big determination that you have the right to carry a firearm, but not the right to carry it concealed unless you have a license (a process initiated to get around the Supreme Court's decision).
That's a substantially different question than whether/how you're allowed to carry your gun while within your home.
All of which boils down to the fact that there is no Ohio law that criminalizes failure to notify a LEO that you are carrying concealed while within your home. The moment you step outside your door, the duty (likely) applies.