CC insurance

[esprrfan2001]

Just curious do most of you get cc insurance in the event of a incident? Who are the better companies to look at it from if you carry it? Thanks

Duane

[DontTreadOnMe]

I don't believe in anything claiming to be a self defense "insurance" plan. True insurance won't cover intentional acts, so plans that claim to be self-defense insurance, aren't. The biggest downside to most of the "insurance" plans is they only pay after the fact, if you've been found not guilty (If you have to spend thousands in legal defense for charges that are eventually dropped or pled out to something very minor, do they pay? My understanding is they don't).

I am a member of the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network (http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and I recommend them. They're very clear that they aren't insurance.

ACLDN's primary benefit is information - You'll get several DVDs upon joining and another one each year (exception: this year all members got a free copy of Massad Ayoob's book Deadly Force - Understanding Your Right to Self Defense), as well as a monthly network journal with contributions from many people including ACLDN advisory board members such as Massad Ayoob, John Farnam , Dennis Tueller ("The Tueller Drill") and others.

Financially, if you need legal assistance for a use of force you get up to $10,000 paid to your attorney to immediately kickstart your defense. If you don't have an attorney there's a 24 hr # to call and they'll help you (or your spouse, etc.) find one from their list of affiliated attorneys. The network also funds a member Legal Defense Fund to help pay for additional expenses beyond the $10,000 retainer.

The network will also have one of their experts review your case, consult with your attorney and if necessary appear on your behalf. Considering the extensive experience the network experts have in use of force and as expert trial witnesses I consider this a major advantage.

Of other groups the only one that I'd consider might be Second Call Defense (http://www.secondcalldefense.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). They've got a good list of benefits that is about more than just paying you back after the fact if you're acquitted. My main concern with that group is they seem to be made up of just 1 lawyer and a few other firearms enthusiasts, with little or no actual courtroom legal experience or documented firearms use-of-force expertise.

[JediSkipdogg]

Well said DontTreadOnMe.

Of other groups the only one that I'd consider might be Second Call Defense (http://www.secondcalldefense.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). They've got a good list of benefits that is about more than just paying you back after the fact if you're acquitted. My main concern with that group is they seem to be made up of just 1 lawyer and a few other firearms enthusiasts, with little or no actual courtroom legal experience or documented firearms use-of-force expertise.

When I look at their website I see issues like this...

Does membership in Second Call Defense cover knives or other weapons?
No. We wanted to cover all weapons, but it proved to be impossible due to the infinite number of possibilities. Because legal problems for law-abiding citizens who defend themselves are generally related to guns, Second Call Defense has been designed to deal with firearms only.

So if my gun jams, I run out of ammo, or I happen to not be near my gun and I'm in my kitchen and grab a kitchen knife they will not defend me. Essentially, you can't use any other weapon other than a firearm and statements like that alarm me that not every self-defense deals with a firearm even if the person has a firearm on them.

If you go to their Plans and Pricing there are a lot of questions that I bring up.

If you buy it you might as well add the spouse if you have one unless you think she'll never touch a gun even in the house. So let's just eliminate the first two plan options and break down some of the estimated expenses....

They offer $50,000 in Civil Suit Damage Protection. Well, inside your home and inside your vehicle we have that protection already. Outside of the home we have 2307.60 Civil action for damages for criminal act. which bars them from collecting if the criminal was committing a felony or misdemeanor crime of violence. If you do happen to lose a civil suit, that $50,000 is just pocket change. The suit is going to be probably at least ten times that and will take someone centuries to pay off regardless of that little bit of money.

They give you $50,000 in Criminal Defense Reimbursement. The George Zimmerman trial ran up $500,000 in just his attorney fees. Most homicides if they go to trial are easily going to cost $100,000.

They also show a bond of $5,000 cash assuming a 10% of $50,000 bond. I hate to break it to most people, but most homicide bonds are in the area of $1 million @ 10%. If they are under the $1 million, generally there is no 10%. So if you get a $250,000 bond, well, enjoy jail.

Notice on the Compensation While in Court part has a notation of 10 days max. That's basically one paycheck.



So, what am I saying? In the unfortunate incident where you have to use a firearm AND you go to trial....you're filing for bankruptcy anyways. You won't find enough insurance that will cover anything so I'd rather just roll it all into one bankruptcy and clean my hands that way. It's going to happen. If you do not go to trial, your expenses are going to be very minimal and there's really no need for the insurance then. In my ten years at my department we've had two self-defense shootings. Both were cleared of the shooting from the PD after giving their story. One did have secondary charges, but they were unrelated to the actual shooting (he was a felon that had weapons in his apartment so he got hung up on that charge only.)

That's my opinion on insurance and pretty much can apply to any company. I don't carry it for using a firearm. The chances of using it are so small it's not worth it in my opinion. I just save some money set aside just to deal with any legal fees I may have, which will be minimal in my opinion.

[sodbuster95]

I am a member of the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network (http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and I recommend them. They're very clear that they aren't insurance.

I am an affiliate attorney with the ACLDN, but I do not work for them. I'm merely one of the attorneys that they list on their site for Ohio.

With that caveat out of the way, I've recommended ACLDN a number of times to those who have asked. If this type of "insurance" (it's not really insurance) is something you're interested in, ACLDN is worth looking into.

[esprrfan2001]

Thanks all, I was curious because I've got emails from USCCA and was wondering if there were others that offered that type of assistance.

[TunnelRat]

I was with you up to:

If you do not go to trial, your expenses are going to be very minimal and there's really no need for the insurance then.

For my self-defense shooting, my attorney cost me $10,000, and we didn't even go to trial.

[JediSkipdogg]

I was with you up to:

If you do not go to trial, your expenses are going to be very minimal and there's really no need for the insurance then.

For my self-defense shooting, my attorney cost me $10,000, and we didn't even go to trial.

I was thinking of the self-defense shootings I've seen where basically it was cleared at the police station the day of or within a few days. A prosecutor may be contacted for a checks and balance from the police but it never officially enters the courts. If it enters the courts, that's a totally different ball game. I should have been more clean and used "courts" instead of "trial."

[Tweed Ring]

I was with you up to:

If you do not go to trial, your expenses are going to be very minimal and there's really no need for the insurance then.

For my self-defense shooting, my attorney cost me $10,000, and we didn't even go to trial.

My attorney, who has defended clients in such situations, says depending on the fact pattern, 10K may be a good start. This is one of many reasons I believe in being a good witness, and not an active participant.

[SeanC]

Someone asks me this question at least once a week. Here's what I wrote to the last gentleman who inquired.

I'm not a big fan of the self-defense insurers. Most of them aren't really insurers in that there is no security behind what they promise. It's a defined benefit plan, and if you ever need to file a claim, you just have to hope they make good. But there are two huge reasons I don't like them. The first is that many of them don't provide a benefit that is worth anything. A good criminal defense will run at least $25k in a self-defense shooting. Perhaps upward of $50k if you take it all the way to trial and need experts. The same goes for the civil side. If there is some merit to the civil case, your legal bill can easily exceed $50k. A lot of the services offer a benefit of $10k for each of the criminal and civil cases. It's something, but it's not going to be enough to get you a top flight lawyer. At $250/hour, which is a reasonable rate for an experienced attorney, $10k gets you 40 hours. You're not getting a good criminal or civil defense for 40 hours. So if you get a pre-paid service, make sure you know what the benefit is, and that it's substantially more than that.

The second thing I don't like about the programs is you don't know who your lawyer will be. When you dig into a lot of these services, you find that they are really owned and operated by a lawyer, and the lawyer may or may not have any experience litigating cases. I have a friend who is assigned counsel for a pre-paid self-defense service, and she's never taken a felony case to trial before. She's never taken a complex civil case to trial, and she's never done a civil use-of-force case before. So woe to you if you sign up with that service (which shall go unnamed) and have to make a claim. Be sure you sign up with a service that either pays the benefit directly to you so you can hire whomever you wish, or sign up with a service that is very clear about who their lawyers are and do your homework to confirm that they're legit. Also, you'll want to find a service that has Ohio-licensed attorneys on call.

[docachna]

Someone asks me this question at least once a week. Here's what I wrote to the last gentleman who inquired.

I'm not a big fan of the self-defense insurers. Most of them aren't really insurers in that there is no security behind what they promise. It's a defined benefit plan, and if you ever need to file a claim, you just have to hope they make good. But there are two huge reasons I don't like them. The first is that many of them don't provide a benefit that is worth anything. A good criminal defense will run at least $25k in a self-defense shooting. Perhaps upward of $50k if you take it all the way to trial and need experts. The same goes for the civil side. If there is some merit to the civil case, your legal bill can easily exceed $50k. A lot of the services offer a benefit of $10k for each of the criminal and civil cases. It's something, but it's not going to be enough to get you a top flight lawyer. At $250/hour, which is a reasonable rate for an experienced attorney, $10k gets you 40 hours. You're not getting a good criminal or civil defense for 40 hours. So if you get a pre-paid service, make sure you know what the benefit is, and that it's substantially more than that.

The second thing I don't like about the programs is you don't know who your lawyer will be. When you dig into a lot of these services, you find that they are really owned and operated by a lawyer, and the lawyer may or may not have any experience litigating cases. I have a friend who is assigned counsel for a pre-paid self-defense service, and she's never taken a felony case to trial before. She's never taken a complex civil case to trial, and she's never done a civil use-of-force case before. So woe to you if you sign up with that service (which shall go unnamed) and have to make a claim. Be sure you sign up with a service that either pays the benefit directly to you so you can hire whomever you wish, or sign up with a service that is very clear about who their lawyers are and do your homework to confirm that they're legit. Also, you'll want to find a service that has Ohio-licensed attorneys on call.

Have you had occasion to review USCCA's program enough to opine on its provisions ? They seem to be doing an extreme amount of marketing these days.