USCCW verses Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network

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USCCW verses Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network

Postby Hayden » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:27 pm

Hello my friends,

With a CCW, if I ever have to draw my gun and fire, the first fight will be for for my life. The second fight could be for my liberty in a court-of-law either in a criminal court or civil.

I have found these two organisations:

USCCW https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ United States Concealed Carry Association

Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/

Firstly as a question are they both roughly selling the same product? That is financial legal protection and representation in the aftermath of a valid self-defence shooting?

Secondly, do any forum members have experience or opinion that one is better than another?

Many thanks in advance.

Hayden.
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Re: USCCW verses Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network

Postby Mikado613 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:39 am

I am also curious to see if anyone has an opinion on one or both companies/organizations.
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Re: USCCW verses Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network

Postby sodbuster95 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:42 am

Although both of these companies are helping you mitigate against a similar risk - I.E., the risk of liability that accrues following the use of a firearm for self-defense purposes -they are not insuring you against the same type of loss.

**In the interests of full-disclosure, I recently became an "affiliated attorney" with the ACLDN. However, I do not work for either of these companies.

In the case of the ACLDN, your membership provides a benefit that directly supports the costs of litigation. The benefit to ACLDN is that if you are involved in a self-defense incident, they don't reimburse you later - they pay the attorney directly and immediately. The point of this is to ensure that representation starts as soon as possible. In addition, ACLDN provides defense and strategy advice to the attorney and can provide expert witness testimony where appropriate. So, in essence, purchasing a membership in ACLDN is all about mitigating the costs of litigation in advance.

In contrast, unless I'm not understanding it, USCCA is a true insurance policy. The site is rather vague on details, though. However, it appears that their coverage is for liability after the fact (I.E., a civil judgement against you or the costs of an attorney, but only after you've already paid them). That's an important point - USCCA may cover your costs, but not until you've already shelled out the money. More importantly, they only reimburse you if you're acquitted. They apparently do have a grant program for payment of fees in advance, but it's discretionary (on their part). I'm not entirely clear on this point, but I believe, unlike ACLDN, USCCA will cover a civil judgment against you up to the limits of your "policy".

In the end, both are risk management plans. You have to decide for yourself whether this is a risk you want, or have a need, to manage and, if so, what the value of that risk is. For example, if you think you'll never get sued or have to use a firearm in self-defense, then these types of plans aren't for you. Or, if you're comfortable mortgaging your house to pay for legal costs rather than paying annually in advance, again, these plans are unnecessary. But if you'd prefer the consistency of a known annual cost with protection against an unknown future cost, then these may be plans worth pursuing. Remember that risk management plans (I.E., insurance) aren't about removing the risk, they're about minimizing the risk and distributing the costs associated with that risk.
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Re: USCCW verses Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network

Postby Mikado613 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:12 pm

Thank you sodbuster95 for that excellent description. As a follow-up question, will membership in ACLDN cover / pay for both criminal and civil attorney fees?
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Re: USCCW verses Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network

Postby JediSkipdogg » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:22 pm

Sod, correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't ACLDN only pay the attorney $5000 misdemeanor/$10,000 felony? While that's alot, isn't the general thinking that a legal self-defense incident will run you in the area of $50,000+? C'mon, Ryan Widmer in his 3 trials racked in over $300,000 I believe. I guess what I'm getting to is if that's all they pay, how much do they really help or aren't there other funds out there that provide more financial help either upfront or in the end?
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Re: USCCW verses Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network

Postby sodbuster95 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:46 pm

JediSkipdogg wrote:Sod, correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't ACLDN only pay the attorney $5000 misdemeanor/$10,000 felony? While that's alot, isn't the general thinking that a legal self-defense incident will run you in the area of $50,000+? C'mon, Ryan Widmer in his 3 trials racked in over $300,000 I believe. I guess what I'm getting to is if that's all they pay, how much do they really help or aren't there other funds out there that provide more financial help either upfront or in the end?


As it was explained to me when I affiliated, those are the amounts of the up-front payments, but not necessarily the limit of them. To be honest, I have no idea what process is in place to approve and disburse fees above that amount, but I know there is one (again - I don't work for them, I'm merely on their list of affiliated attorneys). The big point of the up-front retainer payment is to make sure you have counsel at the earliest possible opportunity; including during questioning if possible.

Mikado613 wrote:Thank you sodbuster95 for that excellent description. As a follow-up question, will membership in ACLDN cover / pay for both criminal and civil attorney fees?


The retainer is meant for criminal prosecution, not civil defense. However, as with excess amounts of criminal fees, there is a process to obtain a grant of funds for that purpose, as well.
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Re: USCCW verses Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network

Postby Hayden » Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:07 am

Thank you for your comments and input.
- Hayden.
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Re: USCCW verses Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network

Postby Bruenor » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:07 am

also be careful of getting on the USCCA mailing list, as you will be bombarded with marketing emails which seem like they arrive multiple times daily. I used to be a member but I couldn't stand the constant marketing push, to upgrade/renew my membership level so I left. they may do good things, but they are more annoying than any organization I've ever seen. Email me when my membership is about to expire not every bleeping day.. thanks.
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Re: USCCW verses Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network

Postby OHIOSTEVE » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:40 am

Bruenor wrote:also be careful of getting on the USCCA mailing list, as you will be bombarded with marketing emails which seem like they arrive multiple times daily. I used to be a member but I couldn't stand the constant marketing push, to upgrade/renew my membership level so I left. they may do good things, but they are more annoying than any organization I've ever seen. Email me when my membership is about to expire not every bleeping day.. thanks.

my exact issue with the NRA
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Re: USCCW verses Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network

Postby Rhino » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:37 pm

Bruenor wrote:also be careful of getting on the USCCA mailing list, as you will be bombarded with marketing emails which seem like they arrive multiple times daily. I used to be a member but I couldn't stand the constant marketing push, to upgrade/renew my membership level so I left. they may do good things, but they are more annoying than any organization I've ever seen. Email me when my membership is about to expire not every bleeping day.. thanks.

The person who founded USCCA is a marketing person, not a firearms person. In fact, he used to post on marketing sites how to get rich by starting membership based web sites aimed at specific markets, and he used the USCCA web site as an example of how this had worked very well for him. The web site was plastered for years with his personal stories of concealed carry, experience with CCW laws and concern for the safety of his family. What was not emphasized though, was that he lives in Wisconsin, and couldn't even carry a firearm until a few months ago, so all of those stories he posted were fabrications. The people who were actually pushing for concealed carry in Wisconsin had never even heard of him, and he wasn't supporting their cause. I wouldn't trust one word from the USCCA. That's just my personal take. I know some others think highly of them, but I most definitely do not.

I have ACLDN. I'm actually the person who told sodbuster95 to check them out and see if he wanted to be affiliated with them.
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Re: USCCW verses Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network

Postby sodbuster95 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:54 pm

Rhino wrote:I have ACLDN. I'm actually the person who told sodbuster95 to check them out and see if he wanted to be affiliated with them.


^^ Yup. :wink:
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Re: USCCW verses Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network

Postby Bruenor » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:37 pm

OHIOSTEVE wrote:
Bruenor wrote:also be careful of getting on the USCCA mailing list, as you will be bombarded with marketing emails which seem like they arrive multiple times daily. I used to be a member but I couldn't stand the constant marketing push, to upgrade/renew my membership level so I left. they may do good things, but they are more annoying than any organization I've ever seen. Email me when my membership is about to expire not every bleeping day.. thanks.

my exact issue with the NRA


NRA got nothin on that guy.. at least with the NRA you can easily opt out.
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Re: USCCW verses Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network

Postby Rhino » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:00 am

^^ I never get emails from the NRA, and I very rarely get snail mail from them.
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Re: USCCW verses Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network

Postby contenderman » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:58 am

To add to the above on USCCA; I like many others suffered through a year of this marketing blitz, and I do mean blitz. Even the NRA, at their most aggravating, does not hit you multiple times a day. Next is the USCCA magazine ... basically useless dreck, and "buy this" ads. Lastly, the absolute blitz once you try and get off their (his) mailing list. Oh yeah, almost forgot, I think he sells his mailing list because shortly after joining USCCA and for a considerable time afterward I was getting all kinds of email solicitations for gear, classes, etc.

If someone wants to lay down some money to get some level of CCW/CHL "peace of mind" ACLDN, or other actual defense representation organizations is the way to go.
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