Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers

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cashman966
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Re: Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers

Post by cashman966 »

djthomas wrote:
Cashman - it's worth pointing out that there is an affirmative defense to having a firearm and/or ammunition on such grounds but it's extremely specific:
(F)(1) It is an affirmative defense to a charge under division (A)(1) of this section that the weapon or dangerous ordnance in question was being transported in a motor vehicle for any lawful purpose, that it was not on the actor’s person, and, if the weapon or dangerous ordnance in question was a firearm, that it was unloaded and was being carried in a closed package, box, or case or in a compartment that can be reached only by leaving the vehicle
True, but you still are going to court on a felony charge hoping that your affirmative defense holds up.
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Re: Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers

Post by tomfolery »

JediSkipdogg wrote:
Cruiser wrote:
Private Entities
The first sign is the one most concealed carry holders should be familiar with and deals with businesses.
Actually that first sign is the one meant for Govement buildings and was put in the Handbook as an example, with the warning to check with your lawyer befor posting.
True, however, it is probably the most commonly used for everywhere. I can't think of anywhere that I have seen posted without that sign or slightly, very slightly, different wording.

That's because it's available for free on the Ohio AG website :D
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Re: Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers

Post by Lthrnck »

So your saying if I enter the East entrance to the building today and see a gun busters sign I now have knowledge that guns are not allowed.

If I enter the West entrance of same building tomorow and there is NO gun busters sign, I still can't enter because I have previous knowledge from entering the East entrance yesterday?
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Re: Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers

Post by Cruiser »

Lthrnck wrote:So your saying if I enter the East entrance to the building today and see a gun busters sign I now have knowledge that guns are not allowed.

If I enter the West entrance of same building tomorow and there is NO gun busters sign, I still can't enter because I have previous knowledge from entering the East entrance yesterday?
Correct!
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Re: Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers

Post by Sevesteen »

Lthrnck wrote:So your saying if I enter the East entrance to the building today and see a gun busters sign I now have knowledge that guns are not allowed.

If I enter the West entrance of same building tomorow and there is NO gun busters sign, I still can't enter because I have previous knowledge from entering the East entrance yesterday?
But since I didn't read the beginning of this thread and don't know what building you are talking about, I can legally go armed via the West entrance.
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Re: Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers

Post by BobK »

Cruiser wrote:
Lthrnck wrote:So your saying if I enter the East entrance to the building today and see a gun busters sign I now have knowledge that guns are not allowed.

If I enter the West entrance of same building tomorow and there is NO gun busters sign, I still can't enter because I have previous knowledge from entering the East entrance yesterday?
Correct!
Not me. I've seen so many signs come down since 2004, if I walked up to a door today and there was no sign, I figure I am good to go.
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Re: Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers

Post by RichN »

I'm lucky if I can remember what I ate for lunch, let alone the posting or not posting status of every building I have ever entered in my life. Give me a break, and use a little common sense.

If you go to a door and it is posted, don't try to walk around and find one that is not posted on the same day; that's just being a tool.

If you come back at a later date just look for the sign at what ever door you choose to enter through.
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Re: Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers

Post by JediSkipdogg »

RichN wrote:I'm lucky if I can remember what I ate for lunch, let alone the posting or not posting status of every building I have ever entered in my life. Give me a break, and use a little common sense.

If you go to a door and it is posted, don't try to walk around and find one that is not posted on the same day; that's just being a tool.

If you come back at a later date just look for the sign at what ever door you choose to enter through.
That is my theory and IMO some very sound advice. If the entrance isn't posted, I don't care what has been said about the business in the past. While the chance of arrest is still there, the chance of conviction IMO is very low with a decent jury as long as Toby Hoover isn't on it. It's the businesses responsibility to post conspicuously so that we know we violated the sign. If an entrance isn't posted, as long as one isn't caught "searching" for that entrance, they didn't knowingly violate it. The Petsmart closest to my house use to be posted. One day I walked in and without even thinking noticed the sign was gone, this was after I disarmed so I went back to my car and armed up.
Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers

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I am not a lawyer. My answers are based on research, knowledge, and are generally backed up with facts, the Ohio Revised Code, or the United States Code.
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Re: Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers

Post by djthomas »

RichN wrote:I'm lucky if I can remember what I ate for lunch, let alone the posting or not posting status of every building I have ever entered in my life. Give me a break, and use a little common sense.

If you go to a door and it is posted, don't try to walk around and find one that is not posted on the same day; that's just being a tool.

If you come back at a later date just look for the sign at what ever door you choose to enter through.
Yep... Plus as I've said before and will say again, we're talking about a fourth degree misdemeanor here. This isn't a capital murder trial where they're going to bring in psychologists, computer forensic specialists, and expert witnesses. As long as you're behaving reasonably you'll probably be OK. It's when you are deliberately indifferent (e.g. walking around until you find an unposted door) that you might get into trouble.

By no means am I minimizing the seriousness of or advocating breaking the law. It is the law and it needs to be followed to the best of one's ability, but with the level of paranoia some folks display you'd swear they faced 15 to life if caught. If they get a traffic ticket do they tremble in fear for the next 12 months because a second moving violation would be of the same seriousness as a private property violation? I sure hope not.
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Re: Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers

Post by SMMAssociates »

Fonejack54 wrote:This is a good opportunity for me to express something I was thinking about the other day. My wife and I go to a local bar for great food. I have never carried in there, of course and no sign was on the door. I've decided that if the owner would place the liquor control sign on the door, while in error, I would still understand his intentions and go and eat somewhere else.
The owner is a veteran and if he does post signage, I am going to appeal to the fact that hundreds of thousands of military people have died defending the Constitution and that as a veteran he should be ashamed to be denying Americans their rights. I actually anticipate this, as he announced his displeasure of the new law in the local newspaper.
Fonejack:

I don't think anybody answered your question....

The "WARNING" sign is (apparently) required by the State. However, unless you don't have a CHL, it can be ignored....

In this case, it probably doesn't matter, but it's NOT a good idea to ask somebody who hasn't posted why :D.... (This is the wrong sign as a gunbuster, but if you ask the guy, he may realize that he DID want to post the place, and go get the right sign.) It's also possible that he just found out that the Liquor Control sign must be posted. I'm not sure that there are any requirements except "conspicuous" either....

I'm pretty sure that the local Longhorn folks at least thought that way when putting up the Liquor Control sign instead of a regular gunbuster sign, although it's changed managers a few times since....

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Re: Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers

Post by NotRight »

Ok... read through the entire thread... didn't see an answer to the question I have. This is going to be a long one so bear with me...

*deep breath*

First some background. In years past, I have had situations that caught my attention at a couple malls in Columbus. I'll just give one example: I was Xmas shopping at Polaris Fashion Place (PFP) mall last November. During my day in the mall I kept seeing this same bunch of kids, probably in their mid to late teens. Dressed all in black, trenchcoats, wild hair - you know rebelling against the parents types. Didn't think much of it until it happened for about the 5th time. Then it seemed like I saw them everywhere. When I was pretty much done shopping I headed for my truck. It 'appeared' as though they were following me through the mall on my way out. I got into the parking lot and lost sight of them, so I didn't think they had followed me out... but once I got to my truck, loaded my bags, and was in the process of getting in I see these same kids jogging in my direction. I made eye contact with one and they all stopped dead in their tracks and gave me the stare down. I got in the truck and scooted out of there. Now, I had never seen these kids before. Didn't stare at them, give them a scowl or disapproving look what-so-ever. I'm a pretty stout guy at 5'10" 220 so I don't think I present myself as an 'easy mark'.

Now fast forward to the present. I had promised to take my best friend's daughter (I don't have kids - she is like a daughter to me) shopping for her birthday. She wanted to go to Columbus and to PFP mall. So we went yesterday. Having just gotten my CCH license (but not yet carrying) I thought I'd do a little research online before we went down to see if the mall was a "CPZ". Did it more out of curiosity and for future reference than for anything specific for yesterday. Sure enough, on the mall's website "standard of conduct" page there is the following message:
As a visitor on this property, you are prohibited from engaging in any of the following activities while on this property.
Carrying or possessing any weapons of any kind, including weapons carried pursuant to a valid license.
So, I filed that away under 'can't carry there'. We get to the PFP mall yesterday and right away I notice there are no CPZ signs on the entrance doors. We spend about 3 hours in the mall and at no entrance or conspicuous place (we hit about half the entrances) did I see a CPZ sign. Those more familiar with Columbus and the malls there: did I miss them somewhere? What about Easton or Tuttle Crossing? If there aren't any CPZ signs on any of the entrances, or other obvious place, would you think it was OK to carry? Is just posting the above quote on an obscure web page (it was a chore to find) enough to obligate me to not carry?

Based on my experiences in Columbus the past few years (though relatively minor) and the fact that there was a fatal shooting at Easton Town Center back in Feb, I would feel better being armed at these places in the future... doubly so when I have a minor entrusted to my care. Thoughts? Comments?

Edit: I did find the thread about Easton being pretty well marked. Of note, on the above mentioned trip last weekend we did eat at the PF Changs at Easton. Parking lots were jammed so we valet parked. It was dark so didn't see the signs anywhere but I wasn't really looking...
Last edited by NotRight on Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers

Post by SMMAssociates »

Steve:

The law says "conspicuous"....

If you can't find the sign, there's no sign....

Unfortunately, they can still tell you that the place is a CPZ, and it's quite unclear who has the authority to do so in a manner that would be an issue, but it's best to assume that anybody is qualified....

However, finding something on a web site, obscure or not, probably wouldn't be qualified as proper notice. The CPZ would have to prove that you saw the site, and knew that it wasn't bogus. Should your presence be questioned, you really are now properly notified, but it's really a "don't ask, don't tell" otherwise. ("Keep it concealed".)

(IANAL)

There is a gotcha hiding here with malls.... Some stores don't or won't post their own entrances. It's possible, therefore, to enter via an unposted entrance, while the main outside doorway to the Food Court, for example, has a BIG "Criminals Welcome" sign.... You can claim "what sign?", and the store that you entered initially may even back you, but it's a little iffy (again, no case law) as to what might happen once you leave that store and go someplace else inside the mall. Again, somebody on the web telling you that "the Food Court is posted, but not Sears" doesn't count....

Guess that the short answer is that you're not supposed to be a mind reader, nor do much more than casually look for a sign.... Nor does me telling you that a particular place is a CPZ make it so....

I get a laugh out of a local hospital. Crying for money, but they spent a pile on CPZ signs. However, they're red plaques about a foot square, with a lot of bright yellow text on them, created by milling out the red top surface. It's nearly impossible to read one of these signs without stopping to read it, which could get you run over by the folks behind you trying to get in to rip off their loved one's dessert.... Want to take a "what sign?" chance? You might win that one. (And you'll note that I didn't mention the name of the hospital.)

Don't over-think this. I may be a little over-reaching, but my view is that any sign you can't clearly make out from your vehicle as you're attempting to park shouldn't count. You shouldn't be obligated to walk up to the door and find out that you need to go back to your car, and point yourself out to somebody who wants your gun.... A little 2" square transparent thing on a glass door shouldn't count.... (That I prefer that they not be able to post at all is another story.)

I ran into one a few years ago - had to take my wife to a Doctor's office, across the street from a major local hospital. No signs in the parking lot, nor on the building doors. Up a few floors, by elevator, no sign on the Doctor's office.

However, I get inside and there's a big gunbuster on a door you have to pass through to get from a reception counter in the waiting room and the inner parts of the office. And another sign you can see, off in a corner, inside that area.

Again, IANAL, but I consider those signs invalid.... If you have to violate the law to see the sign, forget it....

Kind of like getting pulled over for speeding, and when the Officer asks you to walk back to his car and look at the radar unit, finding a "Speed Limit 25" sticker on the radar unit, with no posted signs on the roadway....

Regards,
Stu.

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Re: Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers

Post by BobK »

NotRight wrote:Sure enough, on the mall's website "standard of conduct" page there is the following message:
As a visitor on this property, you are prohibited from engaging in any of the following activities while on this property.
Carrying or possessing any weapons of any kind, including weapons carried pursuant to a valid license.
So, I filed that away under 'can't carry there'. We get to the PFP mall yesterday and right away I notice there are no CPZ signs on the entrance doors.
Well, I'll start with saying my personal decision was to carry at Polaris, Easton, Tuttle, Eastland, and at the mall downtown back when it was open.

The first issue to address is legal. The relevant portion of the statute says:
R.C. 2923.126(C) (3) (a) . . . the owner or person in control of private land or premises, .... may post a sign in a conspicuous location on that land or on those premises prohibiting persons from carrying firearms or concealed firearms on or onto that land or those premises. Except as otherwise provided in this division, a person who knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature is guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and is guilty of a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.
So it is clear that the statute specifies two requirements: "knowingly" and "posted prohibition".

If you know (i.e., from the website) but it is not posted in a conspicuous location, then the essential element of the statute is not met.

The next issue to address is "concealed means concealed". Neither I nor anyone else could guarantee that no-one would ever get arrested because we've seen too many cases of crappy arrests with open carriers and/or failure to notify. IIRC, there was a guy in a Walmart who got loudly argumentative with a manager when confronted about his visible handgun, and he refused to leave when asked because he claimed they could not forbid him since they had no sign. Stupidity. If an LEO witnesses someone in charge asking you to leave and you refuse to do so, that is ordinary criminal trespass. However, if no-one ever knows you are armed, then how would such a confrontation ever occur?

The fourth issue is political, not legal. Many feel strongly that they should not give their business to stores that do not respect their 2A right. Each person needs to make that decision for themselves. Me? I carried anyway (I wouldn't go unarmed) so although I would not go out of my way to frequent such businesses, if I needed something and that offered the most convenience, I was pragmatic rather than dogmatic in my choices.

My final point is if ever accosted, immediately leave the premises. Don't stop to talk. Don't argue the law. Don't waste any time. If you are gone before the police arrive, the entire issue is avoided. Mall security and loss prevention people have the right to detain people for theft, but they do not have the right to detain you for trespassing. Do not get talked into, "let's just wait a minute until the police arrive to clear everything up". Not leaving is unacceptable and places yourself at risk. If a police officer ever said something to me, my response would be, "I am sorry officer, I had no idea this was posted. I'll leave immediately."

I'll also mention that there are hospitals around Columbus that leave major entrances unposted. I always felt the same way about them.
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Re: Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers

Post by NotRight »

SMMAssociates wrote:There is a gotcha hiding here with malls.... Some stores don't or won't post their own entrances. It's possible, therefore, to enter via an unposted entrance, while the main outside doorway to the Food Court, for example, has a BIG "Criminals Welcome" sign.... You can claim "what sign?", and the store that you entered initially may even back you, but it's a little iffy (again, no case law) as to what might happen once you leave that store and go someplace else inside the mall. Again, somebody on the web telling you that "the Food Court is posted, but not Sears" doesn't count....
I thought of that because we used an entrance at one of the stores. But I did look at several of the general entrances as we walked the length of the mall... several times... on both levels... revisiting stores we had already been to... ah the joys of shopping with a teenager! :wink: If I get drug down there again I'll check all six general entrances on both levels. Or... maybe I won't. According to the law, THEY are responsible for posting in a conspicuous location if they don't want CCers to carry on the premises... I'm not responsible for checking every entrance to the mall and every entrance to the stores at the mall to see if they post or not... right?
Last edited by NotRight on Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers

Post by NotRight »

BobK wrote: My final point is if ever accosted, immediately leave the premises. Don't stop to talk. Don't argue the law. Don't waste any time. If you are gone before the police arrive, the entire issue is avoided. Mall security and loss prevention people have the right to detain people for theft, but they do not have the right to detain you for trespassing. Do not get talked into, "let's just wait a minute until the police arrive to clear everything up". Not leaving is unacceptable and places yourself at risk. If a police officer ever said something to me, my response would be, "I am sorry officer, I had no idea this was posted. I'll leave immediately."
I'm with you 100% on your post but specially on this point. I'm not into confrontations, and I'm not going to run around looking to pick a verbal fight over my right to CC. I would never open carry (just a personal choice) and I really don't want to advertise I'm carrying concealed... so... my goal is to keep confrontations to an absolute minimum. Just blend in with the other sheep. Nobody needs to know I have teeth... If, for some odd reason, someone does notice I'm carrying and they ask me to leave... hey, no problem. I'm outta there like a bullet (excuse the pun... heh heh). Might even toss them a card on the way out so they know I won't be back.
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