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Carrying a expandable baton???

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Carrying a expandable baton???

Postby dupree187 » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:44 pm

I have searched about everywhere that I can think of and can't find an answer. Is it legal in Ohio to carry a expandable baton concealed???
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Re: Carrying a expandable baton???

Postby BobK » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:48 am

It is not black and white: there isn't any place in the statutes where you can go and read "an expandable baton is forbidden" or "an expandable baton is OK"

What the stature does state, however, is that it is against the law to carry a concealed "deadly weapon", and then it provides a very generic definition of "deadly weapon"

First, the prohibition against carrying concealed in 2923.12 Carrying concealed weapons.
(A) No person shall knowingly carry or have, concealed on the person’s person or concealed ready at hand, any of the following:

(1) A deadly weapon other than a handgun;


Next, they define a deadly weapon in 2923.11 Weapons control definitions.
(A) “Deadly weapon” means any instrument, device, or thing capable of inflicting death, and designed or specially adapted for use as a weapon, or possessed, carried, or used as a weapon.

Now, an exapandable baton is certainly "capable of inflicting death". One can also argue that it "designed or specially adapted for use as a weapon"
Run into the wrong cop on the wrong day while carrying an expandable baton concealed, and my personal opinion is you are vulnerable to being charged.

In my opinion, a safer choice is to carry a stout wooden cane with a right angle handle. You can adapt tonfa spin techniques to the cane and have a good defensive weapon. By it's very nature, it is not concealed and no-one can accuse you of carrying a weapon.

YMMV.
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Re: Carrying a expandable baton???

Postby willbird » Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:32 am

2923.20 Unlawful transaction in weapons.

(A) No person shall:

(1) Recklessly sell, lend, give, or furnish any firearm to any person prohibited by section 2923.13 or 2923.15 of the Revised Code from acquiring or using any firearm, or recklessly sell, lend, give, or furnish any dangerous ordnance to any person prohibited by section 2923.13, 2923.15, or 2923.17 of the Revised Code from acquiring or using any dangerous ordnance;

(2) Possess any firearm or dangerous ordnance with purpose to dispose of it in violation of division (A) of this section;

(3) Manufacture, possess for sale, sell, or furnish to any person other than a law enforcement agency for authorized use in police work, any brass knuckles, cestus, billy, blackjack, sandbag, switchblade knife, springblade knife, gravity knife, or similar weapon;

(4) When transferring any dangerous ordnance to another, negligently fail to require the transferee to exhibit such identification, license, or permit showing him to be authorized to acquire dangerous ordnance pursuant to section 2923.17 of the Revised Code, or negligently fail to take a complete record of the transaction and forthwith forward a copy of that record to the sheriff of the county or safety director or police chief of the municipality where the transaction takes place;

(5) Knowingly fail to report to law enforcement authorities forthwith the loss or theft of any firearm or dangerous ordnance in the person’s possession or under the person’s control.

(B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of unlawful transactions in weapons. A violation of division (A)(1) or (2) of this section is a felony of the fourth degree. A violation of division (A)(3) or (4) of this section is a misdemeanor of the second degree. A violation of division (A)(5) of this section is a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.

Effective Date: 07-01-1996


I think also somewhere in ORC it says you cannot carry(possibly only cannot carry concealed ?)

" brass knuckles, cestus, billy, blackjack, sandbag, switchblade knife, springblade knife, gravity knife, or similar weapon"


For those that might want to know, a "Cestus" is a glove with spikes on it :-).

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Re: Carrying a expandable baton???

Postby Leone » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:37 am

Would having a baton, club, etc. in my vehicle be legal? Is it considered concealed? I know that the CHL is for a hand gun only.
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Re: Carrying a expandable baton???

Postby Cruiser » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:49 am

A lot of truckers carry a "tire thumper" it is actually used for checking tires for proper inflation. You should also have something to check your tires regularly! :wink:
Remember any item like this should be able to be explained as to its purpose.
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Re: Carrying a expandable baton???

Postby BobK » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:18 pm

An item hidden in a car? IANAL, but judging on how a loaded firearm in a car is considered concealed, it would not be surprising to find a baton or club in the car would be considered concealed.

I've never worried about carrying a cane in my car. It is entirely explainable.

Don't forget the phrase "possessed, carried, or used as a weapon". A cane, a tire pressure checker. a baseball cap/glove/bat, are all explainable as tools or toys.

The "used as a weapon" clause is interesting. If your actions are self defense, then that is an affirmative defense against a concealed weapons charge. If your actions are not justified, you are exposed to being charged with a concealed weapon in addition to whatever other charges apply.
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Re: Carrying a expandable baton???

Postby jbp-ohio » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:34 pm

All you need in the car is a flashlight...................

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Re: Carrying a expandable baton???

Postby Saltcreek » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:05 pm

willbird wrote:
2923.20 Unlawful transaction in weapons.

(A) No person shall:

(1) Recklessly sell, lend, give, or furnish any firearm to any person prohibited by section 2923.13 or 2923.15 of the Revised Code from acquiring or using any firearm, or recklessly sell, lend, give, or furnish any dangerous ordnance to any person prohibited by section 2923.13, 2923.15, or 2923.17 of the Revised Code from acquiring or using any dangerous ordnance;

(2) Possess any firearm or dangerous ordnance with purpose to dispose of it in violation of division (A) of this section;

(3) Manufacture, possess for sale, sell, or furnish to any person other than a law enforcement agency for authorized use in police work, any brass knuckles, cestus, billy, blackjack, sandbag, switchblade knife, springblade knife, gravity knife, or similar weapon;

(4) When transferring any dangerous ordnance to another, negligently fail to require the transferee to exhibit such identification, license, or permit showing him to be authorized to acquire dangerous ordnance pursuant to section 2923.17 of the Revised Code, or negligently fail to take a complete record of the transaction and forthwith forward a copy of that record to the sheriff of the county or safety director or police chief of the municipality where the transaction takes place;

(5) Knowingly fail to report to law enforcement authorities forthwith the loss or theft of any firearm or dangerous ordnance in the person’s possession or under the person’s control.

(B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of unlawful transactions in weapons. A violation of division (A)(1) or (2) of this section is a felony of the fourth degree. A violation of division (A)(3) or (4) of this section is a misdemeanor of the second degree. A violation of division (A)(5) of this section is a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.

Effective Date: 07-01-1996


I think also somewhere in ORC it says you cannot carry(possibly only cannot carry concealed ?)

" brass knuckles, cestus, billy, blackjack, sandbag, switchblade knife, springblade knife, gravity knife, or similar weapon"

Bill


It is not redily available on the internet but is at some libraries and Police departments. Besides reading the ORC, you have to read the "decided case law" as shown in Andersons "Pages". This is the reference for police and prosecutors who are deciding if they can charge you. I am a retired LEO and have read and used it myself. It has been decided a LONG time. A colapsible baton is the same as a billy club in the courts eyes. You WILL go to jail for carrying it. As far as keeping it in the car, this is the same as possesion, the same way that dope found in your car is possesion. You know, a jack handle is not as glamorous, but every car has one and it's legal. If you have time to dig it out, did you also have time to drive away? Inquiring Courts want to know! Get a CHL, stay in the car and use the gun if necessary under the terms of the "Castle Doctrine" Leave the sword fighting with batons to the Police.
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Re: Carrying a expandable baton???

Postby dupree187 » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:19 pm

Saltcreek wrote:
willbird wrote:
2923.20 Unlawful transaction in weapons.

(A) No person shall:

(1) Recklessly sell, lend, give, or furnish any firearm to any person prohibited by section 2923.13 or 2923.15 of the Revised Code from acquiring or using any firearm, or recklessly sell, lend, give, or furnish any dangerous ordnance to any person prohibited by section 2923.13, 2923.15, or 2923.17 of the Revised Code from acquiring or using any dangerous ordnance;

(2) Possess any firearm or dangerous ordnance with purpose to dispose of it in violation of division (A) of this section;

(3) Manufacture, possess for sale, sell, or furnish to any person other than a law enforcement agency for authorized use in police work, any brass knuckles, cestus, billy, blackjack, sandbag, switchblade knife, springblade knife, gravity knife, or similar weapon;

(4) When transferring any dangerous ordnance to another, negligently fail to require the transferee to exhibit such identification, license, or permit showing him to be authorized to acquire dangerous ordnance pursuant to section 2923.17 of the Revised Code, or negligently fail to take a complete record of the transaction and forthwith forward a copy of that record to the sheriff of the county or safety director or police chief of the municipality where the transaction takes place;

(5) Knowingly fail to report to law enforcement authorities forthwith the loss or theft of any firearm or dangerous ordnance in the person’s possession or under the person’s control.

(B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of unlawful transactions in weapons. A violation of division (A)(1) or (2) of this section is a felony of the fourth degree. A violation of division (A)(3) or (4) of this section is a misdemeanor of the second degree. A violation of division (A)(5) of this section is a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.

Effective Date: 07-01-1996


I think also somewhere in ORC it says you cannot carry(possibly only cannot carry concealed ?)

" brass knuckles, cestus, billy, blackjack, sandbag, switchblade knife, springblade knife, gravity knife, or similar weapon"

Bill


It is not redily available on the internet but is at some libraries and Police departments. Besides reading the ORC, you have to read the "decided case law" as shown in Andersons "Pages". This is the reference for police and prosecutors who are deciding if they can charge you. I am a retired LEO and have read and used it myself. It has been decided a LONG time. A colapsible baton is the same as a billy club in the courts eyes. You WILL go to jail for carrying it. As far as keeping it in the car, this is the same as possesion, the same way that dope found in your car is possesion. You know, a jack handle is not as glamorous, but every car has one and it's legal. If you have time to dig it out, did you also have time to drive away? Inquiring Courts want to know! Get a CHL, stay in the car and use the gun if necessary under the terms of the "Castle Doctrine" Leave the sword fighting with batons to the Police.


That is the best answer I have gotten so far. Pretty much what I was getting at was could you carry one on your person like you would a belt knife. Guess thats one weapon that I will be leaving at home. Thanks
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Re: Carrying a expandable baton???

Postby jacksnack » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:23 pm

Saltcreek,

All do respect, but as a student of Filipino Martial Arts I could be just as effective with a baton as a gun...I can't let the po-po be the only ones who swordfight. :D
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Re: Carrying a expandable baton???

Postby yogidave » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:46 pm

There is an ASP in my wife's car, If she has to use it then so be it. I would rather pay fines or pay for a good lawyer to keep her and my children alive and unraped. If questioned I will jump on the spearhead and tell the LEO that I told her to have it. A BG can have what ever he/she wants as a weapon why cant I?
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Re: Carrying a expandable baton???

Postby yogidave » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:49 pm

BTW,
About the mag light, Sodbuster remember FT Bragg 2001 Hells Angels at the fair? Cant carry a stick in your hand but you never know when you need a mag light during the day :mrgreen:
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Re: Carrying a expandable baton???

Postby SMMAssociates » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:23 pm

Saltcreek:

Welcome aboard!

I'm a semi-retired rent-a-cop.... Big deal, except I've been inside that "case law" mess a few times....

I've got a couple of fake ASP's, but never got any training. Shelfware.... IMHO, unlike a nightstick (I did get a bit of training with that :)), I think it's way to easy to really damage somebody with what amounts to a length of steel pipe v.s. the plastic (or wooden) nightstick. Not that you can't seriously injure somebody with a plastic nightstick, but it almost seems like the ASP starts out with that intent.

OTOH, while seeing the laser on your chest is a bit of a myth, watching one of those things pop out really will get your attention if you're not under the influence of something.

(OTOH, again, though, having carried a 24" stick, the little bitty ASP is kinda handy, and with adequate training....)

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Re: Carrying a expandable baton???

Postby BobK » Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:29 am

jacksnack wrote:I could be just as effective with a baton as a gun...

How does that work out for you at 50 yards?
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Re: Carrying a expandable baton???

Postby Saltcreek » Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:48 am

yogidave wrote:There is an ASP in my wife's car, If she has to use it then so be it. I would rather pay fines or pay for a good lawyer to keep her and my children alive and unraped. If questioned I will jump on the spearhead and tell the LEO that I told her to have it. A BG can have what ever he/she wants as a weapon why cant I?


Heard that one before and it does not work, The Court does not care what you told your wife to do. She is an adult and the Law say "DON'T do it". Why would you handicap your wife with a baton in the car when she can get a CHL and stay IN the car to use it. With a baton in the car, you have to get OUT of the car to use it. You have now engaged in what the Court refers to as "Mutual Combat" and are as equally guilty as the perpetrator. This is not guessing, I have seen it first hand.
Yes, in the proper TRAINED hands, a nightstick or PR-24 can be effective. An officer has the slight intimidation factor of the badge to assist. Trouble is, MOST persons who want to use a club, have no clue how to use it or where to strike (or NOT to strike) for effective use. I got a secret for you, The majority of Police do NOT get adequate training beyond rookie school on it's use. A PR-24 is useful because when the bad guy takes it from you, the side handle keeps it from being shoved as deep 'where the sun don't shine'.
Your legal problem is that there is a fine line with a baton of defense and assault. Most do not have the training on where to stop. Getting "judged in Court" sounds macho until you have to sell your house and car and have your spouse bring you goodies in jail.
The flashlight argument is often used by persons who have not had to go to court on it. Did you know that there is actual training given to police on flashlight use. Some departments are actually getting away from the use of large Maglites and going to small high intensity LED lights to avoid officers using it as a club. WHY? Because of the often used and often won argument in court ;
"So Officer, you used a flashlight to beat the defendant? A large flashlight is like a steel pipe filled with lead wieghts isn't it Officer? Would you beat my client with a lead filled steel pipe?
So yeah, get out of the car and use your baton or flashlight - see how far the Castle Doctrine protects you.
It comes down to one argument - you had the LEGAL oportunity to get a CHL to protect yourself. You chose instead to availe yourself of illegal weapons to defend yourself. In that case you have thrown away your legal protections and made yourself vulnerable to the Courts. Good luck.
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