<- Confused - Sign Posted Illegally, Can I not carry?

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OldManTod
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<- Confused - Sign Posted Illegally, Can I not carry?

Post by OldManTod »

All:

I have been reading the forums and the law and I thought I had it figured out, but reading some of the posts, I may not.

If a place has a no guns sign posted (Bank, Fairground, Best Buy, non-Class D restaurant, etc.) am I committing a crime by carrying in there??

It was my impression that the best they could do is ask you to leave or call the Five-0 and report a person with a firearm.

Of course I conceal my firearm well, however if The Man is in the house, he may have an eye for it and report it.

Can I get some clarity?

Thanks,

Todd
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Post by OHIOSTEVE »

IMO and IANAL and all that jazz...BUT if a place is posted either wrongly or rightly and you get caught with a firearm you will likely go to jail...ANY private property that is posted is off limits...PUBLIC property that is posted ( except government buildings) is posted improperly and IF you wanna be a test case you will probably win. BTW the signs in OHIO carry the weight of law..You are committing a crime simply by walking into a properly posted place. class d's do NOT have to post, it is written in the law..a non class D that is posted with a no guns sign ( not the old you may be guilty if you carry) is still private property and its illegal to carry there.
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Post by toddhill »

Only certain places are required to post: schools, state buildings, courthouses and such.
[§ 2923.12.12] § 2923.1212. Posting of signs prohibiting deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance.

(A) The following persons, boards, and entities, or designees, shall post in the following locations a sign that contains a statement in substantially the following form: "Unless otherwise authorized by law, pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code, no person shall knowingly possess, have under the person's control, convey, or attempt to convey a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance onto these premises.":

(1) The director of public safety or the person or board charged with the erection, maintenance, or repair of police stations, municipal jails, and the municipal courthouse and courtrooms in a conspicuous location at all police stations, municipal jails, and municipal courthouses and courtrooms;

(2) The sheriff or sheriff's designee who has charge of the sheriff's office in a conspicuous location in that office;

(3) The superintendent of the state highway patrol or the superintendent's designee in a conspicuous location at all state highway patrol stations;

(4) Each sheriff, chief of police, or person in charge of every county, multicounty, municipal, municipal-county, or multicounty-municipal jail or workhouse, community-based correctional facility, halfway house, alternative residential facility, or other local or state correctional institution or detention facility within the state, or that person's designee, in a conspicuous location at that facility under that person's charge;

(5) The board of trustees of a regional airport authority, chief administrative officer of an airport facility, or other person in charge of an airport facility in a conspicuous location at each airport facility under that person's control;

(6) The officer or officer's designee who has charge of a courthouse or the building or structure in which a courtroom is located in a conspicuous location in that building or structure;

(7) The superintendent of the bureau of criminal identification and investigation or the superintendent's designee in a conspicuous location in all premises controlled by that bureau;

(8') The owner, administrator, or operator of a child day-care center, a type A family day-care home, a type B family day-care home, or a type C family day-care home;

(9) The officer of this state or of the political subdivision of this state, or the officer's designee, who has charge of a building that is owned by this state or the political subdivision of this state, or who has charge of the portion of a building that is not owned by any governmental entity listed in this division but that is leased by a governmental entity listed in this division.

(B) The following boards, bodies, and persons, or designees, shall post in the following locations a sign that contains a statement in substantially the following form: "Unless otherwise authorized by law, pursuant to Ohio Revised Code section 2923.122 [2923.12.2], no person shall knowingly possess, have under the person's control, convey, or attempt to convey a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance into a school safety zone.":

(1) A board of education of a city, local, exempted village, or joint vocational school district or that board's designee in a conspicuous location in each building and on each parcel of real property owned or controlled by the board;

(2) A governing body of a school for which the state board of education prescribes minimum standards under section 3301.07 of the Revised Code or that body's designee in a conspicuous location in each building and on each parcel of real property owned or controlled by the school;

(3) The principal or chief administrative officer of a nonpublic school in a conspicuous location on property owned or controlled by that nonpublic school.

HISTORY: 150 v H 12, § 1, eff. 4-8-04.

Class D's are not required to post.

What you may be seeing is that some public property is posted, but have no authority to do so (Fairgrounds, City Parks). I cannot advise on how to handle this situation :? , but many people are working to fix this.

If it's private property, spend your $$ elseware.

If a place has a no guns sign posted (Bank, Fairground, Best Buy, non-Class D restaurant, etc.) am I committing a crime by carrying in there??
Yes, trespassing, I believe.
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Re: <- Confused - Sign Posted Illegally, Can I not carry?

Post by Petrovich »

OldManTod wrote:All:

I have been reading the forums and the law and I thought I had it figured out, but reading some of the posts, I may not.

If a place has a no guns sign posted (Bank, Fairground, Best Buy, non-Class D restaurant, etc.) am I committing a crime by carrying in there??

It was my impression that the best they could do is ask you to leave or call the Five-0 and report a person with a firearm.

Of course I conceal my firearm well, however if The Man is in the house, he may have an eye for it and report it.

Can I get some clarity?

Thanks,

Todd
That has been my understanding too, but after reading some things on this forum I am confused as well.

Our instuctor (a deputy sheriff) said that if we were caught carrying on private property with a no guns sign the owner of the property had the option to ask us to leave. If you don't leave he has the option of calling police and you will charged with misdemeanor tresspassing.

My worry is that someone would get all freaky and call police before giving me the option of leaving. So there I am with LEO's approaching me out of the blue and I have no clue why (well, I DO have a clue).

Big problem here is any misdemeanor involving a firearm will likely cost you your CHL.

We are fond of discussing 'what ifs' on this forum and I think it is an excellent place to do it. However, at the same time I think we do a lot of hair splitting.
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Post by Brian_Horton »

Tod,

The long and the short of it is that if you are carrying and you go into a class D restaurant that serves alochol for on premises consumption, into a government owned or operated building, into a private business that is posted, or any other place that the law makes off limits then you are guilty of an automatic misdemeanor. (of the 4th degree I believe) No one has to ask you to leave first. If a business owner spots your CCW gun he does not have to approach you, he can call the police and they can arrest you without asking you to leave. If this were to happen you could probably expect to lose your CHL and you might have a hard time getting your carry gun back depending on where you are.
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Re: <- Confused - Sign Posted Illegally, Can I not carry?

Post by Brian_Horton »

Petrofergov wrote: Our instuctor (a deputy sheriff) said that if we were caught carrying on private property with a no guns sign the owner of the property had the option to ask us to leave. If you don't leave he has the option of calling police and you will charged with misdemeanor tresspassing.
Your instructor was wrong. Ohio's law makes it an automatic misdemeanor. No one has to give you the option to leave, though you would be lucky if they did. Ohio does not treat posted businesses like most other states. In places like Kentucky a No CCW sign has no legal bearing like it does in Ohio. In Kentucky they treat it like a trespassing issue. You must be asked to asked to leave first and then refuse before you can be arrested. It would be nice if we could get this fixed in Ohio.
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Post by OldManTod »

Ok, let me try this then (becuase I remember something about this situation).

Does a private business have to post an offical no carry sign or can they put a picture of a gun with a line through it up.

For some reason (and I am racking my brain trying to remember) I am thinking there were caveats to the no gun sign.

T

ps Thanks for your input on this Brian.
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Post by NavyChief »

OK, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on the internet (well, not very often, anywho) - just a reasonably clever Chief. I just read over the law. Looks to me like if it's posted - you're breaking the law going in. If it's not posted, but the owner asks you to leave - you are required to do so.

Signage - the only reference I can find applies to various gov't entities, and it is the standard verbage we've come to recognize. However, it doesn't say exactly what's required on private property in the form of signage. My take would be that if you see a "gun-buster" sign with no verbage, you'd be expected to abide by it.

Just my 2¢...
Total repeal of ALL firearms/weapons laws at the local, state and federal levels. Period. Wipe the slate clean.
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Re: ...

Post by jgarvas »

OldManTod wrote:Ok, let me try this then (becuase I remember something about this situation).

Does a private business have to post an offical no carry sign or can they put a picture of a gun with a line through it up.

For some reason (and I am racking my brain trying to remember) I am thinking there were caveats to the no gun sign.

T

ps Thanks for your input on this Brian.
I skimmed this thread so what I'm about to say may have been already said. There are two important requirements for the no-gun signs to have an effect.

First, the signs must be conspicuous. So, if they're not and you find one (like a 1" one on a mall kiosk) don't tell them to make it bigger, walk away and shut up for the rest of us.

Second, there is a requirement that you must have "knowingly" violated the prohibition. This means there are technically two things that must be proven in order for you to be in violation of a sign. Its only a matter of time before some judge tries to declare that if a sign was in fact "conspicious" then you were knowingly in violation. The problem is this is such a undefinable standard (no, we don't want standardized signs yet!)

With that said, if a facility has multiple entrances and the one you use isn't posted, you can prove after the fact that you were not aware of the policy until you were advised or contacted by law enforcement.

The alternative standard is "recklessly" and OFCC was successful in getting many areas of HB12 converted from "knowingly" to "recklessly" because recklessly is a much lesser standard of proof. Its easier for you to be convicted when they don't need to prove you knew you were in a place you shouldn't be.

For instance, the bill used to make it a crime if you recklessly allowed a firearm to be concealed in your vehicle (paraphrasing). This means if someone you knew came in the car carrying without your knowledge, you may have been found to be reckless. Its a bit of an extreme/stretch, but it highlights the difference between reckless and knowingly.

However, it has been pointed out to us many times that if a property owner verbally informs you that the premises prohibit firearms, even if there is no sign, you are now knowingly in violation if you refuse to leave, sign or not. Even if you know that the Wal-Mart corporate policy is to not post, LEAVE and deal with upper management later. At the time, you would be in violation once you are advised by the management.

As always, IANAL and you need to consider this advise and how much you paid for it.

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Jeff,

Post by BB62 »

jgarvas wrote:...The alternative standard is "recklessly" and OFCC was successful in getting many areas of HB12 converted from "knowingly" to "recklessly" because recklessly is a much lesser standard of proof. Its easier for you to be convicted when they don't need to prove you knew you were in a place you shouldn't be.
I think you mean converted from "recklessly" to "knowingly", don't you?


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