Question

[Petrovich]

Everyone on here is so contributive and knowledgeable when it comes to questions I thought I'd ask one that's been on my mind for some time.

I try to decide in my mind how I will try to react to different situations before they occur. Obviously, this is not an exact thing, but I think it's important to have an idea in your mind what you intend to do.

Here's the scenario. Somehow you have managed to make someone angry. For the sake of this argument, I'll say that someone cut in front of you in line at McDonald's, and you had the audacity to mention it. Frankly, now that I carry, I have already decided to let stuff like that slide. But for the sake of this argument let's say you said something to the line cutter like, "hey man other people were here first."

Now, this guy just blows up. He says he's gonna kick yer butt. As a CCW person you figure the best thing to do is head for your car, but this guy follows you into the parking lot.

Now he's taking off his shirt and running toward you, and you can see he is definately going to do his best to kick yer butt. Unfortunately, you realize you are not going to have the time to unlock your car door and get away before he's on you.

What do you do? It doesn't seem right to shoot, because you can't prove you thought your life was in danger, or you were facing grievous bodily harm since he hasn't produced a weapon. It could also be argued that you initiated the confrontation for saying something in the first place.

At the same time, you can't just stand there and let the guy wail on you either...BTW....he's a big fella.

If you produce your weapon, you have just committed yourself to using it. If you don't use it, he might take it and use it on you.

What would you do?

Marinecorpsmike I would be especially interested in your perspective as a trial lawyer.

BTW, something similar to this DID happen in Columbus. A guy was waiting in line at a pizza joint and some woman cut in line. This guy was on the cell phone with his girlfriend and told her someone had cut in line. The line cutter overheard him say that and she went out and got her boyfriend. The boyfriend came in and proceeded to beat the crap outta the guy on the phone and fractured his face. The guy on the phone was all of 180 pounds soaking wet, and the beater was a 300 pound black guy. This was all caught on store video and the perp went to the penitentiary.

[Aaron]

good question, tricky one to answer.

I'd be worried that a court would see the comment made to the line cutter as doing precisely what you said, Initiating/Instigating

For the true story you mentioned..

If I was the 180lb guy and was approached by a 300 lb'er, Id attempt to retreat, and in doing so, show people I wanted out of the situation. If he left and followed me, and didnt listen to any verbal commands, Id feel inclined to draw.

It would be different if he wasnt so big obviously, the threat factor would be lessened.

I always think about scenarios and get frustrated in doing so.

It would be a lot easier if there were 2 of them or more. Well legally anyways.

[Petrovich]

If I was the 180lb guy and was approached by a 300 lb'er, Id attempt to retreat, and in doing so, show people I wanted out of the situation. If he left and followed me, and didnt listen to any verbal commands, Id feel inclined to draw. .

In the pizza store video the guy who was beaten wasn't even expecting the first blow. It was a classic 'sucker punch' that no one would have anticipated. After the beating started, the guy made it just out the doorway and the beater drug him back in the store and continued beating him until he was out cold on the floor.

In this case, the use of deadly force would have been clearly indicated, but the guy wasn't armed.

[Aaron]

then getting sucker punched would change that whole scenario.

talk about feeling helpless

[gd9704]

RE: The pizza parlor beating:

In my mind, IF the beatee had been a CHL holder, and somehow managed to shoot and kill the ex-con beater, the evening news would go something like this:

"........a GUNMAN licensed to carry a concealed weapon shot and killed a man in a pizza parlor this afternoon with a high-powered .45 Magunum semi-automatic.....(don't laugh, I've heard the local news use this rediculous term before)

"........the shooting victim's mother made this statement to the press:

Momma:(teary eyed) He was such a good boy. So gentle, gettin' his life turned around......went to church on Sunday.....why he'd have to kill him?

The victim's girlfriend had this to say:

Girlfriend: (angry/teary)The gunman called my innocent boyfriend a racist epithet, what was he supposed to do? He called him the "N" word and threatened him with bodily harm....he was defending himself when the guy pulled out this huge gun.....you could tell he was like, looking for a reason to shoot....it was horrible........"

Prosecutors are deciding whether to charge the shooter with a hate crime..........

Of course, the personal injury lawyers would be all over this family like flies on poo.

[Glock and dagger]

Me, I would have drawn my gun and told him (YELLED TO HIM), "Back off!!.)

As far as I'm concerned, when you left and he followed you, you retreated. He may not have brandished a weapon, but the simple fact of the matter is, you were about to stop a potential violent attack. More times than not, he will go away. If not, he deserves shot.

I know... some of you may be thinking... "Yeah, sure, he's saying that now, but he was never in that situation." Well, not this exact situation, but one very similar. I was traveling down I-75, and this idiot old man come up alongside me and started blowing his horn and giving me the finger, and then fell behind me. I needed gas, so I pulled off at an exit, and he followed me. I was stuck, because there was too much traffic, so I rolled my window up, and locked my doors. He come up yelling at me for I don't even know what, hitting on my window, and trying to open my truck door up. He told me not to leave and get out of the truck, and if I didn't, he was going to run me off the road. Out come the gun. I told him when the light turns green, he better not follow me, because if I had to stop for any reason, I would shoot.

He didn't follow me, and the threat ended. No one called the police.

Was I in the right? I don't know. All I do know is that I would have fought it in court.

[Petrovich]

I was traveling down I-75, and this idiot old man come up alongside me and started blowing his horn and giving me the finger, and then fell behind me. I needed gas, so I pulled off at an exit, and he followed me. I was stuck, because there was too much traffic, so I rolled my window up, and locked my doors. He come up yelling at me for I don't even know what, hitting on my window, and trying to open my truck door up. He told me not to leave and get out of the truck, and if I didn't, he was going to run me off the road. Out come the gun. I told him when the light turns green, he better not follow me, because if I had to stop for any reason, I would shoot.

He didn't follow me, and the threat ended. No one called the police.

Was I in the right? I don't know. All I do know is that I would have fought it in court.

Offhand I'd say you were fortunate in that the old fart backed off. If the situation had continued to escalate, and you had shot, I'd say your position may have been difficult to defend. Of course, that's speculation on my part.

After further thought, what I think I would do in the McDonald's scenario I described would be NOT to leave the restaurant. I'm thinking the aggressor would be less likely to attack in a crowded store as in a parking lot. There would also be people there who would call police on their cell phones.

[williampelish]

Everyone on here is so contributive and knowledgeable when it comes to questions I thought I'd ask one that's been on my mind for some time.

I try to decide in my mind how I will try to react to different situations before they occur. Obviously, this is not an exact thing, but I think it's important to have an idea in your mind what you intend to do.

Here's the scenario. Somehow you have managed to make someone angry. For the sake of this argument, I'll say that someone cut in front of you in line at McDonald's, and you had the audacity to mention it. Frankly, now that I carry, I have already decided to let stuff like that slide. But for the sake of this argument let's say you said something to the line cutter like, "hey man other people were here first."

Now, this guy just blows up. He says he's gonna kick yer butt. As a CCW person you figure the best thing to do is head for your car, but this guy follows you into the parking lot.

Now he's taking off his shirt and running toward you, and you can see he is definately going to do his best to kick yer butt. Unfortunately, you realize you are not going to have the time to unlock your car door and get away before he's on you.

What do you do? It doesn't seem right to shoot, because you can't prove you thought your life was in danger, or you were facing grievous bodily harm since he hasn't produced a weapon. It could also be argued that you initiated the confrontation for saying something in the first place.

At the same time, you can't just stand there and let the guy wail on you either...BTW....he's a big fella.

If you produce your weapon, you have just committed yourself to using it. If you don't use it, he might take it and use it on you.

What would you do?

Marinecorpsmike I would be especially interested in your perspective as a trial lawyer.

BTW, something similar to this DID happen in Columbus. A guy was waiting in line at a pizza joint and some woman cut in line. This guy was on the cell phone with his girlfriend and told her someone had cut in line. The line cutter overheard him say that and she went out and got her boyfriend. The boyfriend came in and proceeded to beat the crap outta the guy on the phone and fractured his face. The guy on the phone was all of 180 pounds soaking wet, and the beater was a 300 pound black guy. This was all caught on store video and the perp went to the penitentiary.

What do you do. Get some pepper/mace spray. Use it and run like hell. Saves you from using your gun and it will hit from 5 feet away pretty easy.

[Glock and dagger]

Offhand I'd say you were fortunate in that the old fart backed off. If the situation had continued to escalate, and you had shot, I'd say your position may have been difficult to defend. Of course, that's speculation on my part.

That's for sure. It will be hard enough on us in a black-and-white justifiable self-defense situation to defend ourselves in court, much less in a gray area self-defense area.

Sometimes, I think I should have got out of the truck and kicked the crap out of him. Chances are, I would have done just that.

But it wasn't until he threatened to run me off the road when I busted out the Glock.

[Willy P]

Personally I try to always keep a can of Fox and a Surefire in my pockets. Hot weather makes that a real chore for me unless I want to look like a mama kangaroo but I manage to have the setup 95+% of the time. I think anyone that can make it past having 2 oz. of Fox dumped on them deserves to be shot! They have to be on chemicals of some sort and be totally unstable. There is a real good reason that most LEs you see have it on their duty belt. The stuff works to the extreme. Just my $.02 on it.

[TunnelRat]

He come up yelling at me for I don't even know what, hitting on my window, and trying to open my truck door up. He told me not to leave and get out of the truck, and if I didn't, he was going to run me off the road. Out come the gun. I told him when the light turns green, he better not follow me, because if I had to stop for any reason, I would shoot.

He didn't follow me, and the threat ended. No one called the police.

Was I in the right? I don't know.

Being in the right is not enough. Had the old fart called the police you could have been accused of brandishing. Not to mention going through the scenario of police with backup and drawn guns handcuffing you on your face on the pavement.

You were fortunate that the OF didn't call the police. The LEOs are only gonna know there was a road rage incident. They aren't gonna know who caused it. So both you and the OF are guilty in their eyes, but YOU escalated things by brandishing a firearm (that's not my point of view, but it would be the viewpoint of the LEOs).

All I do know is that I would have fought it in court.

Figure a week in jail waiting for trial, your firearm confiscated, then about $10,000 in legal expenses just in order to plead guilty to misdemeanor violence. You would lose your CHL and would not be able to get another for at least three years.

Maybe staying in the car and calling the police on your cell phone might have been the wiser thing to do....

[medphys3]

you figure the best thing to do is head for your car

Nope, stay there until the {inappropriate language} off guy leaves. Hang out at the counter where everyone can see him wig-out.

If needed, call the police. This may be the difficult part, but just like when you're at home, tell them you are being harassed and you feel threatened. Tell them you are a licensed concealed weapon holder and will be forced to defend yourself if the situation gets worse. Keep the dispatcher on the phone. If you do this, there's no doubt the cops will be there REALLY quick to diffuse the situation.

Now... what if you had your kids with you?

I'd gladly defend myself in court over my family! I don't care what anybody says. In that situation, my gun is drawn and trained on that guy until he walks his butt out the door.

If he attacks me which then renders my children defenseless, then I believe I have the right to shoot. Who knows what else this guy is willing to do.

[Brian_Horton]

Tom is right. If you ever have to pull your gun for ANY REASON you should always call the police. That way they he the story from you first and don't get the other guy calling in about you threatening him with a gun. Who are the police going to believe? You or him? Well he called and you didn't and victims always call the police right?

Also, if you ever pull your gun then it should be for a serious enough reason to warrant calling the police right? Your carry gun is only to be used to save your life or prevent grievious injury. So if you have been faced with that situation then you should call the police.

I always have a can of Fox Labs pepper spray in my car in my unlocked center console. I don't really ever carry it with me, but it is always in the car for situations just like this. Road rage incidents are more and more common these days. I don't think most of them require drawing a gun because they are mostly just hot head threats. The other thing about them is that it is often your word against theirs. Road rage incidents typically involve "regular" people in the sense that they usually don't have a criminal record so it is a matter between two "regular" people, not a regular person and a career criminal with a long wrap sheet to hurt his credibility. Witnesses don't hang around either because they are in their cars and on their way some place. They are not going to stop and give a statement to police. So road rage incidents are typically your word agains the other persons. Pepper spray is a better option to have and you can show that all you want.

[haspelbein]

[...]

What do you do? It doesn't seem right to shoot, because you can't prove you thought your life was in danger, or you were facing grievous bodily harm since he hasn't produced a weapon. It could also be argued that you initiated the confrontation for saying something in the first place.

At the same time, you can't just stand there and let the guy wail on you either...BTW....he's a big fella. [...]

WIth that weight difference, I'm sure I can outrun this guy. Something similar happened when I was once surrounded by Skinheads in Germany. My sneakers must have been better for running than combat boots.

I would retreat in any shape or form possible, car or not.

[STUGOTSIG]

Since you're on the subject of "carry friendly" pepper spray, I was wondering what the backlash of using the spray in a "no shoot" situation. Say this Macdonalds incident is with a couple of high school jocks impressing their dates. Say your backed into a corner (booth) and one or two advance on you. I would guess the command to "GET BACK!, GET BACK!" would be the same except you draw the CO and blast them (or one of them)
I realise if you feel threatened (judgement call) you should be able to use the CO or even deadly force.
What are the ramifications of COing someone and NOT being arrested for assault or escalation?
Scenario assessment leaves me in a quandry most times.