The Legal Ramifications on the use of Deadly Force

[Ring]

good read from ar15.com

Originally Posted By RedDawg6:
I had a unique opportunity to attend a tactical AR-15 class taught by Masaad Ayoob from the Lethal Force Institute. As you may already know Mr. Ayoob is one of the top instructors in the country if not the world. In fact I would classify him as a world class instructor. I learned a lot of things in his class and it was a very intense 2-day class.

The one thing that stuck with me was the fact that he mentioned that he had just finished testifying in court for one of his students who was involved in a self defense shooting. The student who was the defendant in the case was a recent graduate of Masaad Ayoob's Lethal Force 1 Class. One of the primary things that is taught in Masaad's class and other high quality firearms classes is to give verbal commands and warnings to the assailant during the encounter. The reasoning is twofold, first of all you want the attacker to obey your commands in order to defuse the situation and end the confrontation. Secondly and equally important you also want any potential witnesses to hear your audible commands because if the case ends up in a court of law the witnesses will be asked what they saw and heard.

The following is an account of a situation one of Masaad Ayoob's students who was the victim of an attempted car jacking in Boston, Massachusetts. The People's Republik of Massachusetts is probably one of the worst places in the country (from a legal standpoint) where one could get into trouble for defending his or her life from an armed assailant!

For the sake of simplicity I will refer to the victim as Joe. I don't recall his real name but for the lessons to be learned from this incident the name "Joe" will do just fine.

Joe was a recent graduate of Masaad Ayoob's Lethal Force Academy. Joe recently had major stomach surgery and was still recovering and had difficulty moving around because he was still feeling pain from the surgery. Joe lived in Rhode Island and was licensed to carry a concealed pistol in the State of Rhode Island. One of Joe's life long friends' lived in Boston, Massachusetts and was dying from cancer. Joe went to Boston (about 20 miles away) to be with his friend and his family during this difficult time.

On the evening when Joe went to visit his dying friend in Boston he forgot that he had a loaded Glock 21 that he kept in his car. He was not registered to carry a concealed firearm in Massachusetts, in fact very few people are. When Joe stopped at a traffic light a car pulled up along side his vehicle and a man with a knife jumped out of the car and attacked Joe and tried to pull him out of his car. Joe was trying to fight the assailant off and was having difficulty getting to his gun, which was under the seat. He was finally able to retrieve his firearm and got out of his vehicle and shouted to the assailant to “GET BACK IN THE CAR”. The assailant was still trying to attack Joe with the knife. At this time the assailant’s accomplice was also joining into the fight. Fearing for his life, Joe fired his gun hitting the assailant in the stomach and fatally wounding him. Joe also shot the other attacker, wounding him. There were several witnesses who watched the deadly scene play out.

Joe was very scared and upset and left the scene. He also field stripped his gun and threw the components out the window of his car a few blocks away from the scene of the attack. Joe considered himself to be the victim of the attack (which indeed he was) and threw the gun away because he was sickened by the experience as he had never been in a self-defense situation before. He was also in a great deal of pain because of the recent stomach surgery. The surgical procedure also precluded that he wear an adult diaper during the recovery process because he was having difficulty controlling his bodily functions because of the surgery. The attack had caused him to soil his diaper in a bad way.

Joe went to see the family of his friend who was dying. His friend had passed away before Joe was able to see him. Joe told the family about the attempted carjacking and subsequent shooting that took place. They convinced Joe to call the police after all he was the victim of the attack. The police came and arrested Joe for the murder of the guy who was trying to kill him and charged him with attempted murder in the shooting of the accomplice. Joe went to jail awaiting trial and the state prosecutor was asking for a 14-year minimum sentence for Joe for shooting the carjacker.

Joe was not licensed to carry a concealed firearm in Massachusetts. Even though he was legal in Rhode Island he made a mistake when he crossed the state line into Massachusetts. By the same token it is conceivable that the carjacker could have killed him if he wasn’t armed. Regardless of the fact he violated state law which will become important when you read the rest of this article.

Secondly Joe did not issue the proper command to his attackers when they came at him. You are supposed to shout with your best command voice, “STOP! DROP THE WEAPON OR I WILL SHOOT” Instead he shouted, “GET BACK IN THE CAR”.

It was dark when the attack happened and even though there were several witnesses they did not see a knife in the hands of attacker who was fatally shot. When Joe went to court the prosecutor asked the witnesses if any of them saw a knife. None of the 4 witnesses saw a knife during the attack. The prosecutor was trying to get the jury to believe that Joe had murdered one man and wounded his friend for no apparent reason and he was guilty of having a concealed weapon in his vehicle.

The defense attorneys for Joe asked the witnesses if they saw Joe’s gun. None of them did because it was dark and they were in an apartment building overlooking the street where the attack happened and couldn’t see everything that had happened.

Fortunately for Joe there was enough circumstantial evidence to sway the jury in his favor and was determined to be “Not Guilty” on the murder charge. One of the things that worked in Joe’s favor was the fact that he had just got out of the hospital and was physically unable to put up much of a fight without using a firearm. Even though he threw the gun away a few blocks down the road his defense team was able to convince the jury that he wasn’t trying to hide evidence because the gun was registered in his name and if he was really trying to hide it he would have done a better job or at least file off the serial number on the frame and the barrel. He was in a state of shock and threw the gun away because it reminded him of a most horrible thing that just happened and he wanted it to go away!

Joe was charged and found guilty of carrying a concealed weapon without a license to do so. He was sentenced to one year in jail and started serving his sentence about 2 weeks ago. He almost got 14 years but fortunately for him his lawyers were able to convince the jury that Joe was in fact the victim in this situation. The prosecution went for the firearms violation simply because that was all they could get him with. Masaad Ayoob was present at the trial as an expert witness on behalf of his student, Joe. In retrospect Mr. Ayoob stated that it was still a win because only serving one year when you are looking at fourteen years is a small price to pay comparatively speaking.

Masaad also stated that if Joe had followed the instructions in his Lethal Force 1 class he possibly could have gotten off without serving any time at all.

HOW COULD THE OUTCOME HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT?

If Joe would have issued the proper verbal command, “STOP! DROP THE WEAPON OR I WILL SHOOT” Instead of shouting “Get Back In The Car” the witnesses might have seen things differently.

Remember the fact that it was dark out side when the attack happened and the witnesses stated in court that they could not see a knife in the hands of the assailant and they couldn’t see Joe’s gun. If a proper verbal command had been given at that time the witnesses would have heard it and would have stated it to the police when they came to investigate the shooting. Secondly a strong and proper verbal command will reinforce what the witness sees or counteract what he thinks he is seeing. ESPEACIALLY AT NIGHT

Secondly don’t throw the damn gun away. It makes you look bad even if you are innocent! Even if you are puking your guts out after surviving the worst incident in your life, keep the damn gun. It is evidence.

Thirdly, don’t leave the scene of the crime. Even though you are the victim and the victim is allowed to flee the scene, no matter how horrible it is, you need to be there to tell your side of the story. When Joe left the scene the cops only got one side of the story and that was from the surviving bad guy and we all know that he wouldn’t tell a lie, RIGHT!


Masaad went on to say that if Joe had followed all the rules that were covered in his class that it is conceivable that he might have gotten off without serving any time at all. If Joe would have remained at the scene to tell his side of the story and the 4 witnesses had heard Joe shout out at the top of his lungs “STOP! DROP THE WEAPON OR I WILL SHOOT” then the witnesses would have told the cops “the 2 guys must have been armed because that one guy gave them a warning and then a shot rang out.” More than likely Joe would not have been charged with murder because the witness’s testimony wouldn’t have backed it up because Joe gave the proper commands.
If Joe had not left the scene of the crime it is possible he “might” have gotten a walk on the unlicensed firearms charge or at the very least a greatly reduced sentence. They hit him up with the firearms charge because that was all they had left on him, it was the only thing they could get him on, after all they were trying to get him for murder.

When all was said and done the cost out of Joe’s pocket was about $50,000 in attorney’s fees and the loss of his job from spending a year in jail. I assume he would lose his house, car and other worldly possessions due to loss of income while spending a year in jail on a BS weapons charge. The outcome could have been so much different and far better in Joe’s favor if he would have given the proper verbal commands and stayed at the crime scene to give the police his side of the story.

Masaad Ayoob reiterated very strongly in the LFI Light Emergency Rifle Class that if we are ever in a life-threatening situation it is imperative that we give the proper verbal commands so the potential witnesses can hear them. A verbal command also reinforces what the witness sees visually. It also makes it look better in your favor to be there when the police arrive so you can tell your side of the story and the witnesses can corroborate your testimony.

Based on this info from Masaad Ayoob it leads me to believe that using the proper verbal commands are just as important as having the shooting skills to go with it. What good is it to survive the attack just to spend one or two decades in prison because you didn’t say the right words when you were attacked? I will be the first to admit that up until now I didn’t put all that great of importance on the necessity for using the proper verbal commands. Sure I’ve taken the classes and said the words “STOP, DROP THE WEAPON Yada, Yada, Yada” but I never really took it to heart and made it a part of me to the same level as and equal to my shooting skills. That will change.

Masaad Ayoob’s class has changed my thinking in this regard. Plus I also learned a lot of cool things about the AR-15 too. I’ll talk about that on some other day. I just wanted to pass on this info about the legal ramifications of deadly force and how using the right verbal commands can possibly change the out come and save you a lot of grief at the same time.

[TunnelRat]

HOW COULD THE OUTCOME HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT?

I very much appreciate Mas Ayoob. I have been very much helped by his classes, books, and tapes.

That said, I suspect that, even had "Joe" followed Ayoob's directions to the T, it wouldn't have made any difference in the sentencing. Carrying a weapon in Boston is gonna get you a year in jail regardless of what you yell and whom you yell it at.

Maybe, just maybe, "Joe" might have avoided the murder trial, but, again, I doubt it. He left the scene of the shooting; he jettisoned his pistol; he did a series of very dumb things. It is almost a playbook of what not to do...

[Aaron]

HOW COULD THE OUTCOME HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT?

I very much appreciate Mas Ayoob. I have been very much helped by his classes, books, and tapes.

That said, I suspect that, even had "Joe" followed Ayoob's directions to the T, it wouldn't have made any difference in the sentencing. Carrying a weapon in Boston is gonna get you a year in jail regardless of what you yell and whom you yell it at.

Maybe, just maybe, "Joe" might have avoided the murder trial, but, again, I doubt it. He left the scene of the shooting; he jettisoned his pistol; he did a series of very dumb things. It is almost a playbook of what not to do...

I agree.

pulling the trigger was a Must, but it had to be done. Unfortunately it happened where it did.

leaving the scene? suspicious

breaking down the gun? see above

he's lucky he got only a year.

[RockinB]

I agree, mistakes were made.

Shouting the proper commands is great in theory.

Example: Stop. Put down the wea---- BANG

Oh sh*% I've been shot, and I only got half way through the hoop.


Apply this shouting commands reasoning to the " Bug Spray" case from another post. If the clerk had been armed and after being already sprayed, thought to take the time to shout commands before stopping the threat.

It's becoming more and more confusing. Try to retreat, shout commands, stop the threat, go on trial, go to jail. What's the use?

[Brian_Horton]

I agree that this is a text book case of what not to do. Shouting commands is good thing to do for many reason but often there is just no time and clear thinking go out the window and you just react.

[marinecorpsmike]

This story is a good example of what NOT to do if you are ever involved in a self-defense shooting. I am a criminal defense lawyer with thirty years experience , a national level smallbore and high power shooter and a ccw permit holder. I have tried many homicide cases over the years so I have a good idea why this guy was charged with murder. First of all stupid excuses have no place in murder investigations. Those of us who are trained to and do carry a firearm need to act responsibly at all times. Don't expect the cops or prosecutor to give you a hug even if they are supporters of the right to carry. So, this guy's first "mistake" was that he "forgot" that he had a firearm when he went into Massachusetts. Obviously he wasn't charged with murder because of that but it sure started the investigation out badly for him. None of us like the attitude of that state as it pertains to concealed carry but that's the law there so we can't "forget". Second, I agree he would have been better to yell "drop the weapon" or something but in my opinion that wasn't his big mistake. If you shoot somebody you can not just get in your car and drive away, PERIOD! I don' care if your are wearing three diapers and have to pee so bad you are about to burst, no excuse justifies that action. Stay there and act like the victim you are . This guy made himself out to be a road rage participant and not a hijack victim by driving away.. Moreover you cannot strip your weapon and throw it away and expect the cops to believe it was because you were upset! Victims don't go around hiding evidence. That was another stupid excuse. And finally, if you shoot somebody , leave the scene , throw your gun away and then go to your friends house instead of the police is anybody really surprised that this guy was charged? Actually, this story is proof of what I already knew, most courts bend over backwards to protect innocent victims of crime. They even aquitted this guy who did basically nothing right. The lesson for the rest of us should be to think about your conduct if you are ever required to use your weapon in self defense before it actually happens. You may or may not remember to yell "drop your weapon" or whatever else you were taught in class but you damn sure better act and respond like the innocent citizen you are and not make up excuses for poor judgement..Even if fully justified shooting another human is certainly a traumatic event but it is no time to stick your head up your butt and do all the wrong things.

[Petrovich]

This story is a good example of what NOT to do if you are ever involved in a self-defense shooting ....

Extremely well said.

[glockinfairfield]

To put it briefly...WOW, what a fantastic post! Good info!

[ballistic]

To marinecorpsmike: You sound like the type of person I would want in my corner if I was ever wrongly prosecuted for the justifiable use of lethal force. If you're available as defense counsel for CCW holders in such a situation please post to this forum. Thanks.