What to do in this situation???

[Rob-Black99RT]

A neighbor across the street from me yesterday called the police on a couple teenagers who pointed what turned out to be a BB gun at him from across their fence separating the two residences. He said he was working in his yard and looked up to see the top of somebody's head sticking above the fence and a rifle pointed straight at him. He turned around and ran back toward his house and then called the cops, and he said heard the kid laughing as he was running away.

Now, BB gun or not, if somebody were to point a gun at me and it appeared to be real, I'd be drawing my own and possibly opening fire. Given that it was "just a BB gun", which could easily put his eye out (cause great bodily harm), or if it was one of the 1000+ fps models could have easily killed him if shot in the head, would he have been justified in drawing and/or opening fire on them had he been carrying? Unfortunately, I don't think he even attempts to carry, so he's at the mercy of thugs like this, but just suppose he did...

It turns out they didn't shoot at him, but it was simply because they decided not to that time. The person who lives beside him stated this kid and his brother/friend have shot at him and his house before, so they're at least guilty of assault and destruction of property.

So, the question.... would a person have been justified in drawing and/or shooting at someone who has a firearm pointed at you, even if it turned out to be a BB gun? These kids were about the same age as the kid who ran around in DC shooting folks, so we all know it doesn't take an adult to kill you.

BTW, no parents were home yesterday when the kids were doing this, so the parents might be charged with some sort of child endangerment thing, too... Either way, it's going to be pretty ugly for them. Shame on 'em. Heaven help them if they ever pull a stunt like this on somebody's who's carrying. It might get them killed. Stupid kids.

[medphys3]

Ask yourself this... what would a Police Officer do? If you fear for your safety, then I feel you are justified.

If it were me, you're damn right I'd draw, especially if the kids were outside.

The local news in Toledo were hell bent on covering the fact that someone openly carried a BB gun "appeared to be a 9mm semi-automatic", I think they said, in a school protection zone.

If it looks like s**t and smells like s**t...

Todd

[Rob-Black99RT]

Ask yourself this... what would a Police Officer do? If you fear for your safety, then I feel you are justified.

If it were me, you're damn right I'd draw, especially if the kids were outside.

The local news in Toledo were hell bent on covering the fact that someone openly carried a BB gun "appeared to be a 9mm semi-automatic", I think they said, in a school protection zone.

If it looks like s**t and smells like s**t...

Todd

He'd probably draw and either fire right then or tell them to put it down or be shot. This is where kids might think "oh, right... he has got to be kidding", and end up catching some rounds. Now, would a jury convict you? Probably, if it was full of a bunch of gun-hating soccer moms that somehow believe all people who carry guns should know all makes and models, and we can tell the difference between a .177 caliber BB gun and a .17 HMR that will take a chunk of our head off at 30 feet... To a jury of folks who believe in the right to self defense, they'd drop the charges like a bad habit and convict the kids instead of you.

[Michael Courtney]

Someone was shot in the back and killed in Cleveland a couple years back with an air rifle. There is a real and reasonable fear of death or serious bodily harm if someone points one at you.

Michael Courtney

[TunnelRat]

So, the question.... would a person have been justified in drawing and/or shooting at someone who has a firearm pointed at you, even if it turned out to be a BB gun?

"Justified"? It might be legal, but ask any cop (or any veteran) who has ever had to shoot a kid...

[Rob-Black99RT]

"Justified"? It might be legal, but ask any cop (or any veteran) who has ever had to shoot a kid...

Sorry, but let's lay the blame for the kid getting shot squarely where it should fall... on the kid who instigated things by pointing a gun at someone. All the officer was doing was defending his life against a perceived deadly threat. A 13 year old with a firearm can kill you just as dead as a 39 year old. Why is one "so sad" when the other is "he had it coming/it's good there's less trash on the street"??? I'm not about to ask the kid "Hey, is that gun real, and do you really intend to shoot me?" No thanks.... That might get me killed, and my life is worth defending against any person's threats, regardless of their age.


My kids at 3 1/2 and 2 1/2 know not to even point their plastic toy rifles at anyone, even each other.

[Petrovich]

This is a tough one. Heck, I'll speculate.

What would happen to YOU, as an adult, if you pointed an air rifle at someone? What if you shot them with it?

My guess is you'd be charged with a serious crime.

Was the victim in danger of death or grievous bodily harm? I'd say so. You can die from an air rifle wound. Besides, how would he know it was an air rifle and not a 'real' gun?

Did the victim initiate the confrontation? No he didn't.

Did the victim attempt to retreat. Yes he did....and it worked that time.

My guess is that if he'd shot the little snots a jury would have taken his freedom, but as I said....It's a guess.

He was on his own property I assume....did he have a duty to retreat? Does being in the yard make a difference than being in the house?

I believe the prudent thing to do under the circumstances would be to call the police and press charges.

I further believe that shooting those little delinquents would have been a mistake he'd regret later.....even if justified.

[Rob-Black99RT]

Did the victim attempt to retreat. Yes he did....and it worked that time.

......

I further believe that shooting those little delinquents would have been a mistake he'd regret later.....even if justified.

Let's further speculate.... let's say he started to retreat and the kids started shooting. What to do then? Personally, they've more than demonstrated their intent to inflict grave bodily harm on me... so, limp-wristed jury or not, I'm going to preserve my life/health by firing back and fight it out in the courts later. BB gun or not, I don't care.... a threat of grave bodily harm is a threat, whether it's with a .50 AE or slingshot, and I have right to protect my life.

I have a hard time with the whole thought of "regretting it later" when it comes to preserving my life. I don't think it matters if it was a 40-year or a 10 year old... either one of them can pull the trigger and I can be just as dead either way. I find it a moot point if they "understood what they were doing" or not when I'm 6' under or am without the use of my vision, legs, or whatever... My goal is to preserve my life, regardless of whether they understand the consequences of their actions, and I will act accordingly when I perceive a threat to my well-being. Seems pretty simple to me. Is it cold-hearted? Maybe, to the bleeding hearts who think that kids shouldn't be held accountable because "well, they're just kids", but anyone who threatens my life will be dealt with the same. As I said before, dead is dead, and it doesn't matter who does it to you.

[TunnelRat]

"Justified"? It might be legal, but ask any cop (or any veteran) who has ever had to shoot a kid...

A 13 year old with a firearm can kill you just as dead as a 39 year old. Why is one "so sad" when the other is "he had it coming/it's good there's less trash on the street"???

I didn't say "so sad". Nor did I say "he had it coming/it's good there's less trash on the street". Either, neither, or both may apply.

I'm not saying that some people don't need to be brought to an abrupt, violent end, just that you will pay a price if you are the one to do it.

Some guys that you have shot -- men, soldiers -- come to visit only once every month or so. Kids you have shot come to visit weekly.

I do not disagree with your point about your own life being worth defending. I simply point out that on some levels, even being justified isn't good enough. You have to live with that memory for the rest of your life.

[Rob-Black99RT]

I do not disagree with your point about your own life being worth defending. I simply point out that on some levels, even being justified isn't good enough. You have to live with that memory for the rest of your life.

True, but I'd rather deal with the memory of some kid I shot for the rest of my life than have my family have me as only a memory... To me, that makes all the difference, and I can live with that.

[cincydave]

You are justified in using deadly force if you face a PERCEIVED threat, whether the threat is real or not. If you shot the poor underpriveleged miscreants, your judgement on whether you really thought the threat was real will come into question. Did you recongnize the kids with the gun? Do they carry a reputation for stupidity and violence, or is there room for reasonable doubt that they were "playing"...etc. ad nauseum

[TangeloPearl]

It's always hard to ask what someone would do in a particular situation if they aren't actually put into that situation. Personally I believe if I saw that it was a kid but was unsure if the gun was real or not, I would have drawn my weapon, shouted for the kid to drop his gun, and then fired after a second if he didn't respond. If the kid ended up taking one, I would probably be charged anyways. You gotta remember we live in America - the great land where a burgler who breaks into your house to rob you, but ends up cutting himself on the window he broke, can sue you and win for personal harm that your house caused. Lawsuits are crazy here. If you simply drew your weapon on the kid, and he drops the gun right away and runs inside you may think everything is taken care of. But knowing how America is, we know you'll be visited by the police, questioned heavily, and the parents will probably bring a lawsuit stating that their kid needs a shrink because you dramatized him! It sucks, but anything CAN happen....
My bottom line... just do what you believe is right and fight off any opposition. If you draw your gun and the perp does not back off right away... then defend yourself. You'll get my vote.