Rep. James Aslanides, proposed bill........

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Petrovich
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Re: Rep. James Aslanides, proposed bill........

Post by Petrovich »

Geezah wrote:
Petrofergov wrote:
Geezah wrote:
I find these posts oozing ignorance but yet you all buy into the fact that someone that is prepared to break the law will not always purchase a firearm legally. Did you suddenly decide to buy into the crap Toby Hoover spews?
How to win friends and influence people.......call them ignorant!!
I did not call any single person ignorant, rather posts where you would suggest that people that have lived in this country as law abiding citizens for ex amount of years be at the mercy of the local LEOs.
If you read my comment about Toby Hoover then it would make sense, Toby Hoover would have you believe that because I am not (yet) a citizen then I should not be entitled to own a firearm, I could be a terrorist after all and I may use a firearm to shoot down a plane. One less firearm in the hands of a firearm enthusaist.
If I were a potential terrorist the last thing I'm going to do is visit my loal Sheriff's and apply for my CHL :shock:
All well and good. I am sure you are a fine person.

You have, however, overlooked a small, but significant detail.

The United States Constitution grants its rights to citizens. While it's true you enjoy many of the same freedoms as American citizens, they are not your right (yet). They are a privilige granted to you by virtue of the grace, benevolence and wisdom of the United States people. We have historically welcomed foreigners because they have made great contributions to our society.

I am descended from foreigners. I was also born a citizen.

The second amendment does not impart you with the right to bear arms as it does me. Any legal access you have to firearms is, again, a privilige. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

Think of it as joining a club like masons or rotary or whatever. Can you just walk up and say I want to join your club and have the same status as the members here? You could, but they'd tell you fine and dandy..... pay yer dues first.

Solution???? Become a citizen. It's worth the effort. I pray for your success.
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Re: Rep. James Aslanides, proposed bill........

Post by Geezah »

Petrofergov wrote:
Geezah wrote:
Petrofergov wrote: How to win friends and influence people.......call them ignorant!!
I did not call any single person ignorant, rather posts where you would suggest that people that have lived in this country as law abiding citizens for ex amount of years be at the mercy of the local LEOs.
If you read my comment about Toby Hoover then it would make sense, Toby Hoover would have you believe that because I am not (yet) a citizen then I should not be entitled to own a firearm, I could be a terrorist after all and I may use a firearm to shoot down a plane. One less firearm in the hands of a firearm enthusaist.
If I were a potential terrorist the last thing I'm going to do is visit my loal Sheriff's and apply for my CHL :shock:
All well and good. I am sure you are a fine person.
All depends.......
Petrofergov wrote: You have, however, overlooked a small, but significant detail.

The United States Constitution grants its rights to citizens. While it's true you enjoy many of the same freedoms as American citizens, they are not your right (yet). They are a privilige granted to you by virtue of the grace, benevolence and wisdom of the United States people. We have historically welcomed foreigners because they have made great contributions to our society.
But the 2nd does not mention citizens, rather the people, and as I am allowed by law to reside in the US permanetly, would I not be considered one of those people?
After all the constitution was created after escaping the yoke of the British, so the majority of people would have been British descendents.
After all if this right was only granted to it's citizens then why is it I can go down to my local fun store and purchase a firearm?
Petrofergov wrote: I am descended from foreigners. I was also born a citizen.

The second amendment does not impart you with the right to bear arms as it does me. Any legal access you have to firearms is, again, a privilige. Sorry, but that's the way it is.
That's the way it is because you say so, or because that's the way it is. Carrying in Ohio is a privilige but the right to bear arms is an individual right.
Petrofergov wrote: Think of it as joining a club like masons or rotary or whatever. Can you just walk up and say I want to join your club and have the same status as the members here? You could, but they'd tell you fine and dandy..... pay yer dues first.
A club, now the NRA is a club, the OGCA is a club, of which I am member of both, should I now give up my membership because my right (as an individual) to bear arms is going to be revoked?
Petrofergov wrote: Solution???? Become a citizen. It's worth the effort. I pray for your success.
Ok, I'll go over this again, for the first 5yrs of my existence in the US,I should be rendered defenceless, my only defence is to call the Police, because I do not have an individual right to bear arms?


Maybe I'm way off base here and I need to reconsider supporting those that protect the rights of others!
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Post by RonS »

I believe that the Ohio constitution was based on the same premise as the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. . ."

Our republic was created in the belief that all men possessed certain rights which they, the founding fathers enumerated and recognized, but did not grant, because they were already granted to all men by the creator. In certain places these rights are infringed upon, and the people oppressed by governments, but that does not deprive these people of their rights, only of their freedom. No law of man has the moral authority to compel a father to disarm himself in the face of danger to his family.

For years the Brady campaign and the other liberal gun ban advocates have campaigned with the excuse that "If it only keeps a gun out of the hands of one criminal, surely it is reasonable to give up. . ." and then they insert the next little bit of freedom that they want to destroy. Assault weapons, Saturday night specials, mandatory locks, waiting periods, one gun a month laws, universal registration, confiscation; the list is literally endless and goes to the same place, no right to self defense, no liberty, no safety.

This provision is ill considered because it removes a right from a law abiding person on the excuse that a nebulous "someone", might do something harmful. If we allow the premise that a right can be taken away from someone for any reason less their own provable actions, we invite the loss of every single liberty. I am ashamed of Rep. Aslanides for including that provision, because I must conclude that it is a ploy to appeal to certain narrow minded exclusionists who think that only Americans are really deserving of liberty or of life.

America and Ohio can survive violence, they cannot survive reactionary, repressive laws that alienate the decent people who are the backbone of a functioning society.
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Post by Daniel »

RonS is correct. The constitution does not grant any rights. It simply recognizes that those rights exist.

Personally, I have no problem with non-citizens obtaining a CHL. Welcome to the USA! Here, have some freedom! Care to stay a while?
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We must carry arms because we value our lives and those of our loved ones, because we will not be dealt with by force or threat of force, and do not live at the pleasure and discretion of the lawless. - Jeff Snyder
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Post by haspelbein »

But one has to appreciate the slight irony that the US government has more control over me as a permanent resident (requirement to report any change of residence, have to give my SSN during firearm purchases, stronger residency requirements for firearm purchases, need to explain the nature of any trip abroad) than it would if I became a US citizen. :wink:
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud, "General Introduction to Psychoanalysis"
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Re: Rep. James Aslanides, proposed bill........

Post by Petrovich »

Geezah wrote: All depends.......

But the 2nd does not mention citizens, rather the people, and as I am allowed by law to reside in the US permanetly, would I not be considered one of those people?
After all the constitution was created after escaping the yoke of the British, so the majority of people would have been British descendents.
After all if this right was only granted to it's citizens then why is it I can go down to my local fun store and purchase a firearm?
First off, let me tell you I personally have NO PROBLEM with your ability to buy a firearm legally. If you pass the background check that's all that's necessary. If you CAN buy a firearm, why did you start this conversaion in the FIRST place???

When the United States declared itself a soveriegn nation its PEOPLE became CITIZENS. What's this nonsense about british descendents?

Ok, I'll go over this again, for the first 5yrs of my existence in the US,I should be rendered defenceless, my only defence is to call the Police, because I do not have an individual right to bear arms?
You just said you could go to the "funstore" and purchase a firearm! This conversation is becoming a ramble. I cannot hope to follow your loose associations and rambling logic. When you can make up your mind what it is you can, and cannot do we can resume if you wish.
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Re: Rep. James Aslanides, proposed bill........

Post by Turk182 »

-Permit off-duty law enforcement officers to carry a concealed gun at any time.

Of course Rep. Aslanides is referring only to those officers whose departments do not allow their officers to carry off duty. Unless a LEO agency states the opposite (i.e. reserves/part-timers/etc...) LEOs are always within the scope of their duties 24/7. Hence they have the same power during their "eight hours paid duty" as they do other than that time. Here in Ohio like most places in the U.S. LEOs are expected at all times to intervene, if practical and safe, if we observe a felony in progress. We can also be written up and disciplined by our department if we fail to act even when we are "off the clock". This is why most departments (as mine does) highly recommends us to carry at all times except when are under the influence alcohol.
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Re: Rep. James Aslanides, proposed bill........

Post by williampelish »

Geezah wrote:
williampelish wrote:
Geezah wrote:Just got this off the Dayton Daily news,
Link

Well as a resident alien who has lived in the US for 8yrs going on 9, who's father is a natralized US citizen, who's Grandfather was an American GI who was a rear gunner in the B17s during WW2. How will this affect me?

A quick background on my status, after living here for 5yrs I could have applied for citizenship, after being married for 3yrs I could apply for citizenship, well long story short, I have recently started the process to become a citizen, but it concerns me that there are other law abiding resident alien firearm owners that may be out of luck because of this bill


This is a prevention as far as resident aliens from what I can see. It prevents people who wish to cause terrorism to the law abiding people. I am not saying that all is fair in this idea. However, would you rather be killed by a terrorist who has a gun or would you rather file for citzenship and get approved?

I have had to make sacrafices working with numismatics because of 9/11. Aren't you willing to follow through?

Will
I find these posts oozing ignorance but yet you all buy into the fact that someone that is prepared to break the law will not always purchase a firearm legally. Did you suddenly decide to buy into the crap Toby Hoover spews?

When I went through my interview at the American Embassy in London, I had to pass a full background check, a piture of my right profile was taken, I had a blood test, chest xray and full check up. I am a Resident Alien, I'm not on a student visa or just travelling through or a temporay visa, I have a visa that entitles me to everything you are except voting and going on welfare. Well the welfare part, I'm not interested in but the voting I am, so I decided to persue citizenship but that doesn't mean that I'm any less entitled to protect myself or my family than you.




No I have nothing good to say about ANTI's. I just know how easy it can be to buy a gun in the US. I feel if your married(Resident Alien) and have been for 3 years that you qualify. I do refer more so to sudent visas. I respect your wishes.
Will
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Re: Rep. James Aslanides, proposed bill........

Post by williampelish »

thejew wrote:-Permit off-duty law enforcement officers to carry a concealed gun at any time.

Of course Rep. Aslanides is referring only to those officers whose departments do not allow their officers to carry off duty. Unless a LEO agency states the opposite (i.e. reserves/part-timers/etc...) LEOs are always within the scope of their duties 24/7. Hence they have the same power during their "eight hours paid duty" as they do other than that time. Here in Ohio like most places in the U.S. LEOs are expected at all times to intervene, if practical and safe, if we observe a felony in progress. We can also be written up and disciplined by our department if we fail to act even when we are "off the clock". This is why most departments (as mine does) highly recommends us to carry at all times except when are under the influence alcohol.
I feel and think all LEO's should carry when not working. This way they could help out a defense-less person that gets in a jam if needed. I am against the signs that forbid us and them to not carry in that establishment.

Will
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Re: Rep. James Aslanides, proposed bill........

Post by Petrovich »

williampelish wrote:
I feel and think all LEO's should carry when not working. This way they could help out a defense-less person that gets in a jam if needed. I am against the signs that forbid us and them to not carry in that establishment.

Will
For years I was under the impression, from talking to LEO acquaintenances, that if it wasn't mandatory; it was highly encouraged for LEO's to carry off duty. I believe they even had policies concerning what could be carried in terms of type and caliber. Maybe I am confusing off duty carry with on duty backup carry.

I think it's a good idea for them to be armed while off duty, the same as I think it's a good idea for all lawful citizens of sound mind and maturity.
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Post by Petrovich »

Cable wrote:RonS is correct. The constitution does not grant any rights. It simply recognizes that those rights exist.
No offense, but isn't that the same thing?
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Post by Jim-in-Toledo »

Petrofergov wrote:
Cable wrote:RonS is correct. The constitution does not grant any rights. It simply recognizes that those rights exist.
No offense, but isn't that the same thing?
Not quite, if it is granted, it can be taken away.
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Post by Petrovich »

Jim-in-Toledo wrote:
Petrofergov wrote:
Cable wrote:RonS is correct. The constitution does not grant any rights. It simply recognizes that those rights exist.
No offense, but isn't that the same thing?
Not quite, if it is granted, it can be taken away.
Not quite. :D

It can't be taken away, but you can forfeit it.
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Re: Rep. James Aslanides, proposed bill........

Post by Petrovich »

thejew wrote:-Permit off-duty law enforcement officers to carry a concealed gun at any time.

Of course Rep. Aslanides is referring only to those officers whose departments do not allow their officers to carry off duty. Unless a LEO agency states the opposite (i.e. reserves/part-timers/etc...) LEOs are always within the scope of their duties 24/7. Hence they have the same power during their "eight hours paid duty" as they do other than that time. Here in Ohio like most places in the U.S. LEOs are expected at all times to intervene, if practical and safe, if we observe a felony in progress. We can also be written up and disciplined by our department if we fail to act even when we are "off the clock". This is why most departments (as mine does) highly recommends us to carry at all times except when are under the influence alcohol.
You are prolly already aware of this organization. Just in case you aren't.

http://www.jpfo.org/
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Re: Rep. James Aslanides, proposed bill........

Post by Geezah »

Petrofergov wrote:
Geezah wrote: All depends.......

But the 2nd does not mention citizens, rather the people, and as I am allowed by law to reside in the US permanetly, would I not be considered one of those people?
After all the constitution was created after escaping the yoke of the British, so the majority of people would have been British descendents.
After all if this right was only granted to it's citizens then why is it I can go down to my local fun store and purchase a firearm?
First off, let me tell you I personally have NO PROBLEM with your ability to buy a firearm legally. If you pass the background check that's all that's necessary. If you CAN buy a firearm, why did you start this conversaion in the FIRST place???
Did you read my intial post?
Prohibit noncitizens from getting concealed-carry licenses.
While I can purchase firearms legally, Rep. James Aslanides is looking to restrict the rights of resisdent aliens to carry firearms concealed(if I am reading this correctly) legally, that is my beef. While I am getting the impression for you it's "I'm alright Jack", for me I view the law abiding firearm owning community as a collective, this is where we are strong.
Why exactly did you pursue your CHL?
Petrofergov wrote: When the United States declared itself a soveriegn nation its PEOPLE became CITIZENS. What's this nonsense about british descendents?
You're the one saying that the 2nd only applies to citizens, not me, the 2nd talks about the right to bear arms being an individual right, nothing about citizens.
Petrofergov wrote:
Geezah wrote:Ok, I'll go over this again, for the first 5yrs of my existence in the US,I should be rendered defenceless, my only defence is to call the Police, because I do not have an individual right to bear arms?
You just said you could go to the "funstore" and purchase a firearm! This conversation is becoming a ramble. I cannot hope to follow your loose associations and rambling logic. When you can make up your mind what it is you can, and cannot do we can resume if you wish.
It is only a ramble because you choose to view it as a ramble.

Yes, I can go to the funstore and purchase a firearm(legally) but Rep. James Aslanides wants to restrict me when it comes down to my CCW.

Is your family that much more important than mine?
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