Private party sales, what's the best way to conduct it.

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Re: Private party sales, what's the best way to conduct it.

Postby carmen fovozzo » Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:19 pm

jacksnack wrote:
carmen fovozzo wrote:.....Signature and CHL # and DOB of buyer.I always ask for it.



I would not want to do business where a private seller recorded my info.
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I show you my CHL, you see I am a "good guy", the money exchanges hands.

....................If you show your CHL that has your # and DOB on it. Your still a good guy. I'm more enterested in protecting myself after I find out the buyer is legit. To each his own.
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Re: Private party sales, what's the best way to conduct it.

Postby charben » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:02 pm

e3mrk wrote:Good arguments against a Paper Trail but what would You do if You purchased a Gun and later it was found to be one used in a Murder or some other Crime?
I for One would like to be able to prove where I got the Gun from.
I will never sell a Fire Arm to or Buy a Fire Arm from Any One that refuses to give a Legal Name and Address for the Receipt.


That is certainly your prerogative. However, I am having trouble envisioning a scenario where this would happen.

Let's say I buy a gun from a guy down in Columbus and sign no paperwork and have him sign no paperwork. He bought the gun second hand so I am now at least the third owner.

So there is a murder on the east side of Columbus that is unsolved and all the police know about the murder weapon is that it was a 9mm...probably a Glock based on the recovered bullet. There were shell casings at the scene but no prints.
The Glock happened to be the one I bought from the guy in Columbus.

How in the world will the cops end up finding me?

A: There is no registration in Ohio. Even if there WAS, if I have the gun, then the cops don't. How would they know the serial number of the gun in question? This may be an issue in the future if microstamping ever becomes reality.

B: How would any LE know what guns I own? Let's say that I am pulled over on my next trip to Columbus and after I inform, the cop asks me to disarm. I allow them to take my Glock but then what? They may run the serial number but all that will tell them is if it was stolen (assuming someone filed a report). How would they tie it to the murder?

Now, doing it your way, you have provided the cops a route to your door. Lets say that they have an accomplice in the murder and that accomplice tells police that they sold the gun to some "white guy" and they give some description of the buyer and the buyer's car. The police find the buyer and this is the guy that you bought the gun from. Good thing for the cops is that the buyer took some paperwork from you when you bought the gun from him. Soon, you are getting a knock on your door. You aren't in any trouble but you are probably out your Glock (and likely on some sort of list to watch).

For me, I do what is required by the law...and I don't do one lick more.
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Re: Private party sales, what's the best way to conduct it.

Postby carmen fovozzo » Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:14 am

............I can't recall the exact killings and in what state, but the shooter, a young guy killed some people and the weapons he used were tracked back to a pawn shop where he bought them ? How they do that ? I believe the shooter was Asian.
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Re: Private party sales, what's the best way to conduct it.

Postby Cruiser » Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:43 am

carmen fovozzo wrote:............I can't recall the exact killings and in what state, but the shooter, a young guy killed some people and the weapons he used were tracked back to a pawn shop where he bought them ? How they do that ? I believe the shooter was Asian.

If they have a gun and serial number they start with the manufacturer, and the gun can be tracked as long as the paper trail is not broken. Once a FTF or theft takes place that trail is broken.
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Re: Private party sales, what's the best way to conduct it.

Postby Tither » Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:45 pm

Honestly, just ask yourself what you would do at a gun show. I am not about the paperwork either! Reason, just in case a flaming liberal socialist type actually gets elected, and wants to do massive but unconstitutional gun control. Especially if his party is in control of both houses and is appointing Supreme Court Justices! :lol:

There is a reason why the Government is not supposed to know where all guns are. If they did, it would be their country! Not ours!

However, if you have a gut feeling that something is wrong, just walk away!
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Re: Private party sales, what's the best way to conduct it.

Postby willbird » Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:03 pm

mcb wrote:I am thinking about buying a handgun from someone else (that I do not know) here in Ohio. I know private party transaction from one Ohio resident to another is legal but what is the best and safest way to conduct such a transaction. I am the buyer in this case but either way what information should exchange hands (in addition to the exchange of money and firearm) so that both side of the transaction have enough information to assure them the other party member is on the up-and-up. I have never done a private party sale with someone I did not know. Any advice and experience would be greatly appriciated. Is there any issues or pitfalls I should watch for and avoid.

Thanks
mcb


As a buyer the SAFEST thing for you to do is ensure that you DO not give the seller anything but your name. I would not hesitate to prove I am an Ohio resident, I will even show my Ohio CHL to prove I can legally own a gun. But I am NOT providing a slew of information for some dweeb to secrete away in his basement filing cabinet that has a nice list of gun owners names and address's in it. No way no how am I giving that info to a private party, if he/she wants that lets go to an FFL and I will pay the $25 to trasnfer the gun through the FFL and the seller does not get ANY of my info, but the FFL gets ALL his/her info, and my behind is covered if the gun turns out to be stolen.

If they have a gun and serial number they start with the manufacturer, and the gun can be tracked as long as the paper trail is not broken. Once a FTF or theft takes place that trail is broken.


it is still VERY difficult to trace a gun even IF every time it is bought and sold that happens through an FFL. If I buy a new XD-45 from Gander Mtn there is a paper trail from the mfg, to a distro, to GM, to me...................if I take it to Clelands and sell it, and they sell it to Evan Price, who sells it to "Tons-O-Guns" in Ney Ohio, who sells it to RDigital, who sells it to another FFL, who sells it to another private party. Then the gun is recovered in a storm drain in Port Clinton the trace of who bought it when and where is going be very difficult to piece together, if it was used to shoot a federal Judge the ATF may put that effort in, but not for a case where a bullet was recovered in a no injury drive by in Toledo.

The only option they would have to trace it QUICKLY in a high profile case would be to call EVERY FFL and ask them if they sold an XD-45 serial #xxx-9876c and if so when and to whom.

Bill
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Re: Private party sales, what's the best way to conduct it.

Postby evan price » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:58 am

willbird wrote:it is still VERY difficult to trace a gun even IF every time it is bought and sold that happens through an FFL. If I buy a new XD-45 from Gander Mtn there is a paper trail from the mfg, to a distro, to GM, to me...................if I take it to Clelands and sell it, and they sell it to Evan Price, who sells it to "Tons-O-Guns" in Ney Ohio, who sells it to RDigital, who sells it to another FFL, who sells it to another private party. Then the gun is recovered in a storm drain in Port Clinton the trace of who bought it when and where is going be very difficult to piece together, if it was used to shoot a federal Judge the ATF may put that effort in, but not for a case where a bullet was recovered in a no injury drive by in Toledo.

The only option they would have to trace it QUICKLY in a high profile case would be to call EVERY FFL and ask them if they sold an XD-45 serial #xxx-9876c and if so when and to whom.

Bill


Well, where's my XD45? :lol:

The BATFE can quickly trace a gun from manufacturer, to distributor, to wholesaler, to retailer, to original customer. From that point on, that's it. Anything more requires the co-operation of each sucessive owner. That includes FFLs. There is no central location to record gun transactions- it's all in the individual bound books of each individual FFL.

Let's use Bill's XD45. Springfield's distributor sends it to Target World. Target World sells it to me. I sell it to Aim HIgh! because I don't like it.

The BATFE can trace all the way to me- that's where the record ends. If I can remember what I did with it, they can continue the trace (and they go check Aim High!'s bound book to see who they sold it to). If I can't remember who I sold it to- then the trace ends. If I sold it to a private individual, if I choose to divulge who that is- and quite honestly, I make it a point to not remember who I sell stuff too or buy stuff from- they can then maybe go ask them what happened to the gun. And again, maybe they get an answer, maybe they don't.

A scheme of instantly tracing guns to who owns it NOW is only possible if we enact some form of national registration. God willing, that won't happen.

As to when I buy or sell a gun-

I prefer to meet in busy, populated, well-lit areas. Parking lots of large shopping centers are great. Gun stores or shooting ranges are the best. If the person is "known" to me, then money = gun. If they are not known to me, I usually ask to see a CCW. Other than that, I really don't care to make a paper trail. If the other party involved wants to, they can use my name and the date. Nothing else. If that's a problem, then no deal.
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Re: Private party sales, what's the best way to conduct it.

Postby Stealie » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:32 am

If it doesen't feel right walk away. There will be other deals out there.
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Re: Private party sales, what's the best way to conduct it.

Postby djmac1964 » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:04 am

Just out of curiosity. What if you buy a gun from a guy outside of a gun show, or anyplace else for that matter, with no paper trail. A few months later you are involved in a traffic stop while carrying that gun. You inform the LEO that you are carrying. He then disarms you during the stop and runs the Serial # on the gun and it comes up stolen. Would you think at that point it may have been a good idea to have made a paper trail to possibly prove where you got the gun at least?
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Re: Private party sales, what's the best way to conduct it.

Postby willbird » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:54 am

evan price wrote:
willbird wrote:it is still VERY difficult to trace a gun even IF every time it is bought and sold that happens through an FFL. If I buy a new XD-45 from Gander Mtn there is a paper trail from the mfg, to a distro, to GM, to me...................if I take it to Clelands and sell it, and they sell it to Evan Price, who sells it to "Tons-O-Guns" in Ney Ohio, who sells it to RDigital, who sells it to another FFL, who sells it to another private party. Then the gun is recovered in a storm drain in Port Clinton the trace of who bought it when and where is going be very difficult to piece together, if it was used to shoot a federal Judge the ATF may put that effort in, but not for a case where a bullet was recovered in a no injury drive by in Toledo.

The only option they would have to trace it QUICKLY in a high profile case would be to call EVERY FFL and ask them if they sold an XD-45 serial #xxx-9876c and if so when and to whom.

Bill


Well, where's my XD45? :lol:

The BATFE can quickly trace a gun from manufacturer, to distributor, to wholesaler, to retailer, to original customer. From that point on, that's it. Anything more requires the co-operation of each sucessive owner. That includes FFLs. There is no central location to record gun transactions- it's all in the individual bound books of each individual FFL.

Let's use Bill's XD45. Springfield's distributor sends it to Target World. Target World sells it to me. I sell it to Aim HIgh! because I don't like it.

The BATFE can trace all the way to me- that's where the record ends. If I can remember what I did with it, they can continue the trace (and they go check Aim High!'s bound book to see who they sold it to). If I can't remember who I sold it to- then the trace ends. If I sold it to a private individual, if I choose to divulge who that is- and quite honestly, I make it a point to not remember who I sell stuff too or buy stuff from- they can then maybe go ask them what happened to the gun. And again, maybe they get an answer, maybe they don't.

A scheme of instantly tracing guns to who owns it NOW is only possible if we enact some form of national registration. God willing, that won't happen.

As to when I buy or sell a gun-

I prefer to meet in busy, populated, well-lit areas. Parking lots of large shopping centers are great. Gun stores or shooting ranges are the best. If the person is "known" to me, then money = gun. If they are not known to me, I usually ask to see a CCW. Other than that, I really don't care to make a paper trail. If the other party involved wants to, they can use my name and the date. Nothing else. If that's a problem, then no deal.


In a VERY high profile case the ATF can try to find out if FFL's have sold a given gun, most easily in the general geographic region by simply visiting each FFL in person and asking them. In a high enough profile case such as a Lee Harvey Oswald type event they could call and visit EVERY FFL nationwide.

There was a Federal Judge murdered in their own home that the Fed govt is leaving no stone unturned to solve the crime, the gun in question was a Makarov with an aftermarket barrel, Gov.org got the sales records from the mfg of the bbls and is going to each individual owner forcing them to submit their guns for ballistic testing, I know one person they did this with....the FBI called him, and then came and picked the two guns up, then dropped them off at a later date after test fire.

They think they know who did it, but that individual (not the guy I know) bought TWO barrels and only has one in his possession now which is not the one used in the murder according to ballistic tests. In an attempt to foil ballistic testing the shooter also fired a 380 round in a 9x18 barrel.

Bill
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Re: Private party sales, what's the best way to conduct it.

Postby Brian D. » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:52 am

In several years of making these face-to-face transactions only once did I change my mind and not show up. The seller had an ad in the (now defunct, R.I.P.) Tradin' Post weekly paper. The phone number listed specified an extension # of like 103 or something. I dial the number, person answering the phone was a motel operator. So, "extension 103" was room # 103. Talked to the guy and set up a time to meet there. Before I went I did a little research on the motel--turns out it was in a not-so-good part of town and had been the scene of a fair amount of police...uh, interest. So, I backed off.

About a week later that motel was raided and a couple people were hauled in for being in possession of a BUNCH of stolen proerty. No idea if one of these was the gun peddlar I'd spoken with.
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Re: Private party sales, what's the best way to conduct it.

Postby BobK » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:23 am

willbird wrote:There was a Federal Judge murdered i. . . Gov.org got the sales records from the mfg of the bbls and is going to each individual owner forcing them to submit their guns for ballistic testing,

I didn't know that the government kept sales records for gun parts. Jeez. Heaven help us.
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Re: Private party sales, what's the best way to conduct it.

Postby charben » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:38 am

djmac1964 wrote:Just out of curiosity. What if you buy a gun from a guy outside of a gun show, or anyplace else for that matter, with no paper trail. A few months later you are involved in a traffic stop while carrying that gun. You inform the LEO that you are carrying. He then disarms you during the stop and runs the Serial # on the gun and it comes up stolen. Would you think at that point it may have been a good idea to have made a paper trail to possibly prove where you got the gun at least?


Given the alternative risks out there, this particular risk is one I am willing to take. But I mitigate this risk by only doing business with people I trust. I have sold guns to members here that I don't know REALLY well, but the guns I have bought are from people I have gotten to know pretty well or I have done multiple transactions with.
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Re: Private party sales, what's the best way to conduct it.

Postby willbird » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:23 am

BobK wrote:
willbird wrote:There was a Federal Judge murdered i. . . Gov.org got the sales records from the mfg of the bbls and is going to each individual owner forcing them to submit their guns for ballistic testing,

I didn't know that the government kept sales records for gun parts. Jeez. Heaven help us.


The Gov got a subpoena to get the sales records, the company is now out of business. It sounded like they were trying what is known as a "brute force method" if they prove that they tested every OTHER barrel ever sold and it was not the barrel that was used in the murder, then they can say the missing barrel that he DID have has to be the one used in the murder.

Bill
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Re: Private party sales, what's the best way to conduct it.

Postby pleasantguywhopacks » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:27 am

State up front your want to see some ID preferable a CHL. If they resist walk away and find another gun. Any gun that has my name on it I know who I sold it to and keep that info. Any gun I got second hand that I resell I ask to see a current State ID. Thats enough for me.
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