Participants

Want to talk about IDPA, IPSC, or other competition events you are involved in
or are interested in participating in? Want to know if anyone is going to a local gun show? Wondering when the next OFCC event is? All that and more is in this section!

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Harlie
Posts: 750
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:34 pm
Location: SE Ohio/Nobletucky

Participants

Post by Harlie »

It appears that not many shoot at competitive events or just don't talk about it. USPSA/IDPA are really good for keeping handling/shooting skills up to date. Skills will deminsh rather quickly w/o maintenance. Also moving drills are essential for upkeep of training.
Keep a keen mind, eye and edge.
INFIDEL, armed, angry and unapolegetic
Ole man from Thunder Mtn
Politicians & diapers should be changed often, both for the same reason
Buckshot
Posts: 3504
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:52 pm
Location: Lima, Ohio

Post by Buckshot »

Harlie,

Many of us shoot regularly and practice movement.

Many of us don't shoot USPSA/IPSC or IDPA because we don't want to waste the money on menbership in an orgainzation that will turn around and artifically impose its views on our training.

USPSA/IPSC was for many years a track meet with a gun rather than any valid training about using cover and concealment where you had to have the "gun of the month" to even be competitive rather than a proven combat firearm.

IDPA started out better but is VERY DICTATORIAL. They have recently outlawed almost all Kydex holsters for IDPA use even when people are carrying these same holsters routinely on the street.

Both of these outfits want to run "exclusionary" matches, in that you must be a member or you can't shoot and if the club running the match wantts to continue to be able to run the matches they must support this "exclusionary" attitude.

Our club runs MPPC (Modified Practical Pistol Course) matches. They balance them to be "firearm neutral" (at least for duty firarms, they still require 6 rounds and discriminate against "belly guns" in this case) by limiting stages to 6 round strings or 6 round reloads. We will NOT PERMIT afilliation with either of the listed groups because we WON'T put up with that kind of "exclusionary" attitude in a group we affiliiate with!

Buckshot
TunnelRat
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Location: Toledo

Post by TunnelRat »

Yup, I gotta go with Buckshot on this one. I try to get a coupla hours of live-fire every week in addition to my dry-fire at home.

I used to shoot IPSC and had a lot of fun with it, but I found myself developing some very bad habits. I would consistently drop my magazines, knowing I could always come back later. I didn't make good use of cover and concealment, nor was I encouraged to do so. Everything is set up for speed. Although IPSC has a number of good points, practical self-defense skills aren't among them.

I also used to shoot IDPA. Often, between IPSC and IDPA, I would end up in shooting matches four or five times each month. Sometimes, I'd shoot in more than one match per day (though that took a bit of driving).

Unfortunately, IDPA has some very strict doctrines about shooting and reloading. For example, on mulitipe targets they want you to shoot each target once first, then come back for a second shot later. Maybe for somebody really fast that would work, but for a slow old guy like me, I like to take that extra shot -- make it a double-tap -- while I'm still pointed at the target. It only adds a fraction of a second and two hits are far more likely to put your target down than only one hit.

I don't like that teaching regardless of what caliber I am shooting, but I especially don't like it when I am shooting 9mm. It's a nice, snappy, recoil free, little caliber, but I don't trust it to put my target down with only one shot (sorry, I do not believe in Marshall and Sanow and their One Shot Stops any more than I believe in Santa Claus).

I've also learned not to turn away from a threat until I'm sure it has been neutralized. If you've got two threats, it is better to put one of them down hard first before turning to the other, rather than to do each of them a little hurt.

I won't even go into the difficulties with their equipment requirements. I will say that both IPSC and IDPA are a lot of fun. I also agree that IDPA is much closer to self-defense work than is IPSC, but neither substitute for professional training and regular practice.

Tactics are breath mints for dyslexics...
TunnelRat

"Applying the standard that is well established in our case law, we hold that the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States." ~ McDonald v. Chicago

When your only tools are a hammer and sickle, every problem starts to look like too much freedom.
Brian D.
Posts: 16229
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: SW Ohio

Post by Brian D. »

Harlie, I just sort of "dabble" in IDPA (or IPSC even less) these days, for the same reasons as the two posters ahead of me. I'm lucky enough to be able to shoot with gunwriter Rick Miller and our friends, using his "Paladin" program. Try picking up Combat Handguns and reading his "Tactics" column in a few issues, and steal those drills for your own little practice group, or just yourself. (Chances are some of you are already familiar with these articles.) They are sensible, often being based on things that have really happened to various godd guy guntoters.

FWIW, we write the times down for each shooter after every drill, and put a circle around the fastest time/score. But we don't add up the results throughout the day. This seems to bring out a bit of competitiveness, without turning the day into a full-blown "game".
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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jualdeaux
Posts: 327
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:33 pm
Location: Springfield, Ohio

Post by jualdeaux »

I can understand where everyone is coming from as far as IPSC and IDPA, to a point. it might just be that I go to an unusual one. The one in Wilmington doens't really care if you use kydex. Many people do. They do make you use cover and instruct and coach if you are using it wrong. Most of the COFs require you to do a double tap and not shoot each one once then go back around and shoot them again. They have done this in the past but I only remember one time this whole sumer. They also want you to use the exact same equipment that you are going to use in RL. With the possible exception of pocket guns, ankle holdsters, shoulder holsters and such. If you use an OWB, use that. If it is an IWB, use that. The purpose is to get practice with your actual equipment. They did just have a wednesday night practice about 1.5 weeks ago where they specifically told everyone to bring all these BUGs. You could even use a fanny pack if you wanted to. it would have been fun to watch how all sorts of people did with these different methods of carry.

One other thing is that they don't tally the score until later that evening and then send them out in an email and post them online. That helps to make it more of a fun time instead of a high intensity competition. Actually, I didin't get the scores from last weekend until yesterday morning.
Harlie
Posts: 750
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:34 pm
Location: SE Ohio/Nobletucky

USPSA/IDPA

Post by Harlie »

Appears some chose to not participate for numerous reasons, but you are missing a great opportunity to get practice outside your comfort zone. No one says you have to be competitive to shoot. All my work at every shoot is from IWB, Carry type piece, drawn from under cover garmets. You won't be very competitive doing it thusly. Sequence vs t-order is a choice we can make. Course discription is a guide line, shoot the way you chose for the learning experience. Go for the hits, as fast missing don't count anyway. Try new things to add to survival tool kit. Shoot stages strong or weak only, etc. Some clubs do require membership, most don't. Recent house search scenerio w/9 targets, competitve runs were 28/45 sec's, mine was 72 sec's 1st run and 73 sec's second run, guess who utilized cover and sliced the pie. 1st run COM/0 dn, second run heads/0 dn. you will recieve back what you put in. Practice, don't we all need some? Especially w/carry gear.
Keep a keen mind, eye and edge.
INFIDEL, armed, angry and unapolegetic
Ole man from Thunder Mtn
Politicians & diapers should be changed often, both for the same reason
TunnelRat
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Posts: 9710
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:31 am
Location: Toledo

Re: USPSA/IDPA

Post by TunnelRat »

Harlie wrote:Appears some chose to not participate for numerous reasons, but you are missing a great opportunity to get practice outside your comfort zone. No one says you have to be competitive to shoot.
You make some good points. Though there are indeed drawbacks to IPSC and IDPA, at least they give us a place to practice.

I hope you don't think my remarks were meant as a put down. That was not at all my intent. Rather, I appreciate your reminder that the various meets offer an extra dimension of practice.
TunnelRat

"Applying the standard that is well established in our case law, we hold that the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States." ~ McDonald v. Chicago

When your only tools are a hammer and sickle, every problem starts to look like too much freedom.
Buckshot
Posts: 3504
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:52 pm
Location: Lima, Ohio

Post by Buckshot »

Harlie,

If you enjoy and get benefit from the matches, more power to you.

Some of the guys at our club tried to put on IDPA matches and ran into problems.

They were told that they could not permit deviation from the stage scenario, if it was not shot right they had to disqualify people. They wre also told that if they ran IDPA sanctioned matches a non-IDPA-member could only shoot 1 match per year, if they permitted non-members to shoot more than that they would be subject to having their sanction.

Our club held USPSA/IPSC matches several years ago and gave them after a bunch of crap from USPSA.

That is why the pistol department there holds their own matches, to stay away from the sanction hassle.

Friends of mine who do shoot IDPA told me about the recent banning of most Kydex holsters. They were trying to get me to go shoot with them, but told me I would have to buy leather holsters becasue they know I carry Kydex 90% of the time. THis is the kind of crap that shows that these groups dom't much care about what their members really carry and use on the street.

I won't pay the money for these matches, then get DQed for shooting them in the proper manner instead of per scenario. I am NOT going to do it :their way" jsut because they want me to. Remember, you WILL DO LIKE YOU TRAIN!

Buckshot
Mad Duck
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Preble County
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Post by Mad Duck »

Gentlemen,
I recommend to all my students, to try competition, because many of the people getting their CCW have never shot under stress, it's a good learning time for rookies to see the effect of stress.
I agree that most matches are not tactically sound, they really can't be there are a game.
There are very few who train for the real thing. For the majority IDPA, USPSA, even SASS, is a way to learn how well they do under stress, & over time they learn to control it. I have seen newbies shaking from a case of the nerves, when they first start in competition, over time they calm down & can control the emotion factor.
For many ( every trainer has seen it, & those that don't train others, saw it when they took their CHL course) the ccw class is like pre-school, competition is like jr-high, & some will go onto higher learning.
So competition has it's place in the learning curve.
TunnelRat
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:31 am
Location: Toledo

Post by TunnelRat »

Mad Duck wrote:For many ( every trainer has seen it, & those that don't train others, saw it when they took their CHL course) the ccw class is like pre-school, competition is like jr-high, & some will go onto higher learning.
And grad school is a {inappropriate language}... :?
TunnelRat

"Applying the standard that is well established in our case law, we hold that the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States." ~ McDonald v. Chicago

When your only tools are a hammer and sickle, every problem starts to look like too much freedom.
Harlie
Posts: 750
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:34 pm
Location: SE Ohio/Nobletucky

USPSA/IDPA

Post by Harlie »

IDPA did restrict some holsters from their events, altho I haven't seen any one turned away at any shoots that I've attended. That was an attempt to eleminate those who have streched the rules and it has p'd off some. Most who complain the loudest are some who are there only to win/place well at a competition, I view it as a place to enhance skills and try new things. I use Kydex exclusively due to it satisfactory performance in retention and reholstering ease. The sticklers are a problem, maybe, at some places, but there again, no disquaifications, just penalties (Failure to do right). Your inability to accomplish some skills under stress of a competitve event, may indicate your likely hood to not survive a really stressful occurance. Also there are no guarantees in life, so no amount of training or practice will overcome all likely hoods, but sure does give you a leg up. Training w/o out serious practice is no assurance of suceessful out comes either. In my mind competitive events are what you want them to be, no more or less.
Keep a keen mind, eye and edge.
INFIDEL, armed, angry and unapolegetic
Ole man from Thunder Mtn
Politicians & diapers should be changed often, both for the same reason
Brian D.
Posts: 16229
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: SW Ohio

Post by Brian D. »

Maybe I shouldn't bring this up, but one nice thing my little practice group does is to run a "hot" range. That is, when we show up, we load up and stay that way throughout the session. Now you might ask what the advantage is to this system. Without all the time spent doing the "load and make ready" and "unload and show clear" stuff, we get a lot more shooting done in a given amount of time. Fwiw, my solo practice sessions are the same way, provided I have the practice pit at my club all to myself.

Guess it's not feasible to do the same thing in organized competition though, seeing as how there are newbies, and perhaps other folks unknown to the club, in attendance. Funny though, have seen several NDs at "cold" ranges over the years, most often when the shooter is loading or unloading. (This is why I strongly advise folks to keep the gun pointed right at the backstop when loading or clearing, as opposed to snapping the trigger with the muzzle pointed just a few feet downrange. Personal quirk of mine I suppose.)

In contrast, by its nature there's not nearly so much handling of firearms throughout the day when you run the range "hot". This method does presuppose a certain level of basic experience and proficiency though, and maybe it's better left out of larger shooting events(?)

Harlie, you know who and what I'm referring to when I say "big boy rules". Ever ask Ken Hackathorn what he thinks about running a "hot" match? (I've meant to on a few occasions but always forget!)

There, 'hot vs. cold ranges', that oughta stir up the thread and keep it going! :wink:
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
Harlie
Posts: 750
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:34 pm
Location: SE Ohio/Nobletucky

Any practice

Post by Harlie »

And most matches should be run as "hot" IMHO. Been thru training sessions in SE Ohio. We loaded up and stayed that way, with the option of down loading for lunch if you chose.
Next thing that comes immediately to mind is learning to move about and around non-adversaries with a loaded firearm in hand. Cause we walk around every day w/hot handguns, no problems noted yet (?). If something goes down and we respond w/carry piece, just how many know how to move amongst the innocents w/o sweeping people?
Stress will be out of sight and w/o training, it could be very ugly. Guarantee at a hot range, any dumb acts seen will be responded to quickly, offenders will be educated very fast.
Most scenerio's have us rushing in, very few have us retreating to cover while engaging, Why? Hear too much about the "NEW" shooters being dangerous, we all started some where. Many long time shooter's have bad habits, which would be broken fast at a hot range
Keep a keen mind, eye and edge.
INFIDEL, armed, angry and unapolegetic
Ole man from Thunder Mtn
Politicians & diapers should be changed often, both for the same reason
jualdeaux
Posts: 327
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:33 pm
Location: Springfield, Ohio

Post by jualdeaux »

Yeah. I have to agree that having a cold range is a real pain. I also took my more advanced training at a hot range and it is much preferable to me than unloading/loading all the time.

To counter this, I have been to enough matches, and seen enough newbies and their total lack of safe gun handling, to understand why they would want a cold range. Those mistakes are corrected just as fast as if they had live firearms.
Brian D.
Posts: 16229
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: SW Ohio

Post by Brian D. »

Glad to see I'm not the only one who likes the concept of a hot range.

Harlie, you brought up one of my favorite pet peeves when you mentioned not allowing uprange movement at matches, because it's "too dangerous" for new shooters. I've even had a couple match directors/stage designers tell me they make most lateral movement left-to-right ONLY, because going the other way "is too tough for right handers" (!) Let's see, how many stupid ideas are behind that line of thinking?

1) What about the lefties in attendance, wouldn't left-to-right be "too tough" for THEM??

2) If one can't keep his/her muzzle down range because of moving to the weak side, try to take about three seconds to figure out how to do this, it's no harder than, say, the Chicken Dance or Hokey-Pokey.

3) Also, if lateral movement while holding a firearm is too darn confusing or taxing, don't let me find out that person has a CCW permit, my sarcasm would kick into overdrive!

Since I'm generally at somebody else's club and don't wanna get kicked out before the match is done, I refrain from pointing out how stupid that thinking is, at least until my equipment is bagged up and I'm ready to leave.

And don't get me started on the idea of "never reholstering a hot gun during a stage, it's too dangerous!" That one may not be for first-timers to competition, but for those who carry a pistol out in the REAL world, it's a needed skill.


Edit to add: I gotta try switching to decaf after my first two cups of the day, folks may not wanna read these rants so early in the morning! :wink:
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

********************************************************************************
1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
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