When is Tactical too "Tactical"?

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Stryker74
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When is Tactical too "Tactical"?

Post by Stryker74 »

An interesting blurp shared by Dave Spaulding this morning about a situation during a training session in California recently.

A supposedly well known instructor was providing some tactical training in California. According to the accounts of the incident, the instructor was making a point that pistols were meant to get dirty and be used as tools. To emphasize that point, the story goes that he had the students throw their guns on the ground and he proceeded to walk on the guns. When he stepping on his own pistol, it fired a round into a student's vehicle.

Original Story here

So, the question I pose for discussion: When is all of this "tactical" training just too much? When does it go from being useful knowledge being transferred to instructors just acting foolish (I daresay reckless in this case) to prove their opinion?

Don't get me wrong - I attend as much of a variety of training as I can. But, I have to say, I have not experienced this "operator" mindset that we keep seeing come into the field. I have had the honor of training multiple times at TDI, and consider their courses to be geared toward real world, day-to-day self-defense. I have taken other, smaller courses and scenarios from other instructors - all of whom I respect. All of that experience has been a benefit to me, and none has been too over-the-top for my average citizen taste.

But if I get that vibe of "tactical operator" coming from an instructor, I steer clear and go elsewhere.
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Re: When is Tactical too "Tactical"?

Post by WY_Not »

Shame on the students for actually doing what the instructor said.

He is right in that my firearms are simply tools and they are definitely meant to be used. That said, there is no way in h3ll I'm going to intentionally mistreat/abuse them. If I take care of my tools they will take care of me.
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Re: When is Tactical too "Tactical"?

Post by Mr. Glock »

Remember that, what I will call "advance firearms training" is a business.

And there used to be a limited number of schools, say 10-15 years ago. If you wanted to work at, say, Gunsite, you worked up their ladder. And taught their material their way. Having years of experience in teaching students, most of the bugs were worked out of the system for safety. You might not be getting the bleeding edge of new tactics as a student, but you were getting a good basic education.

After a decade and half of the War on Terror, the supply of ex-military folks who wanted to hang out a shingle drove up the number of schools (and ex-LEOs too). In some ways, the increase in supply increased the demand, in a supply-side manner. Easier to attend a school (more geographic locations) and the rise of social media touting the benefits. Student enrollment climbed as well.

But, being a business, each school needs to differentiate itself. And, the quality of instructors (both in firearms ability and, even more importantly, in teaching ability) is more variable with the increased supply. Plus, "cool" schools get more students, and we all know what "cool" can be in the inter-webs (vs reality).

This was brought home to me when doing a course in/around vehicles where a large percentage of the students were prior military with fairly recent combat experience. I was a little out my depth (but not so far as to compromise safety), but one of the fellows told me that, in the military, they take weeks to train up to do what we trained up to do in 3 days.

It is hard to understand this if you are new to "advanced firearms training", because you don't know what you don't know. Having taken training from multiple instructors (although not an overwhelming #), I would be much more careful in choosing a school today, solely due to my experiences in previous schools.
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Re: When is Tactical too "Tactical"?

Post by Bama.45 »

WY_Not wrote:Shame on the students for actually doing what the instructor said.

He is right in that my firearms are simply tools and they are definitely meant to be used. That said, there is no way in h3ll I'm going to intentionally mistreat/abuse them. If I take care of my tools they will take care of me.

I agree. It's different teaching students how to clear a firearm if it's accidentally dropped in mud etc.. But that was stupid.
"Lord, make my hand fast and accurate.
Let my aim be true and my hand faster
than those who would seek to destroy me.
Grant me victory over my foes and those who wish to do harm to me and mine.
Let not my last thought be 'If I only had my gun."
And Lord, if today is truly the day you call me home
Let me die in a pile of empty brass."
Amen




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Re: When is Tactical too "Tactical"?

Post by TSiWRX »

Mr. Glock wrote:Remember that, what I will call "advance firearms training" is a business.

And there used to be a limited number of schools, say 10-15 years ago. If you wanted to work at, say, Gunsite, you worked up their ladder. And taught their material their way. Having years of experience in teaching students, most of the bugs were worked out of the system for safety. You might not be getting the bleeding edge of new tactics as a student, but you were getting a good basic education.

After a decade and half of the War on Terror, the supply of ex-military folks who wanted to hang out a shingle drove up the number of schools (and ex-LEOs too). In some ways, the increase in supply increased the demand, in a supply-side manner. Easier to attend a school (more geographic locations) and the rise of social media touting the benefits. Student enrollment climbed as well.

But, being a business, each school needs to differentiate itself. And, the quality of instructors (both in firearms ability and, even more importantly, in teaching ability) is more variable with the increased supply. Plus, "cool" schools get more students, and we all know what "cool" can be in the inter-webs (vs reality).

This was brought home to me when doing a course in/around vehicles where a large percentage of the students were prior military with fairly recent combat experience. I was a little out my depth (but not so far as to compromise safety), but one of the fellows told me that, in the military, they take weeks to train up to do what we trained up to do in 3 days.

It is hard to understand this if you are new to "advanced firearms training", because you don't know what you don't know. Having taken training from multiple instructors (although not an overwhelming #), I would be much more careful in choosing a school today, solely due to my experiences in previous schools.
^ This, absolutely and totally. I could not have said that better. Similarly, as someone who's been through a few (although even less than Mr. Glock :oops: ), I definitely want to emphasize that last sentence.

Vet your instructors thoroughly.
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Re: When is Tactical too "Tactical"?

Post by JU-87 »

Thank you for posting. Very interesting and helpfull.
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Re: When is Tactical too "Tactical"?

Post by Stryker74 »

TSiWRX wrote:
Mr. Glock wrote: It is hard to understand this if you are new to "advanced firearms training", because you don't know what you don't know. Having taken training from multiple instructors (although not an overwhelming #), I would be much more careful in choosing a school today, solely due to my experiences in previous schools.
^ This, absolutely and totally. I could not have said that better. Similarly, as someone who's been through a few (although even less than Mr. Glock :oops: ), I definitely want to emphasize that last sentence.

Vet your instructors thoroughly.

I honestly think that is why I continue to go to TDI. I do want to expand into other schools/instructors - but TDI is very convenient and a wealth of knowledge. Plus, there is a comfort level there with knowing their methods of teaching.

That said - I am going to try to hit one of Dave Spaulding's classes this year if I can fit it in. Just to add another perspective to my training.
Aaron

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Re: When is Tactical too "Tactical"?

Post by Brian D. »

Okay, listen up: In addition to taking classes, try to find like minded friends, and a place your group can use for realistic shooting practice. At least sort of keep score, and share the latest "new moves" whoever most recently took a class learned. Split costs fairly, everybody pitch in on set up, tear down, target resetting, brass pick up, etc.

I've met many people who save up to take their next class, but in the meantime do little or no live fire. These skills are perishable, do you want to spend the first two hours of that next class relearning what you've "forgotten" ?

If you can't find friends ;) or that place to shoot together, get yourself in some matches, even if that means travel and expense. It's ultimately worth the bother.
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Re: When is Tactical too "Tactical"?

Post by Bama.45 »

Brian D. wrote:Okay, listen up: In addition to taking classes, try to find like minded friends, and a place your group can use for realistic shooting practice. At least sort of keep score, and share the latest "new moves" whoever most recently took a class learned. Split costs fairly, everybody pitch in on set up, tear down, target resetting, brass pick up, etc.

I've met many people who save up to take their next class, but in the meantime do little or no live fire. These skills are perishable, do you want to spend the first two hours of that next class relearning what you've "forgotten" ?

If you can't find friends ;) or that place to shoot together, get yourself in some matches, even if that means travel and expense. It's ultimately worth the bother.

Great advice. I know firsthand that these skills are perishable if not practiced regularly.
"Lord, make my hand fast and accurate.
Let my aim be true and my hand faster
than those who would seek to destroy me.
Grant me victory over my foes and those who wish to do harm to me and mine.
Let not my last thought be 'If I only had my gun."
And Lord, if today is truly the day you call me home
Let me die in a pile of empty brass."
Amen




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~The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.~ Thomas Jefferson
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Re: When is Tactical too "Tactical"?

Post by Caver »

If you are interested in attending a Dave Spaulding class, the RIchwood Gun and Game Club and Ohio Shooting Sports are co-hosting his Essential Pistol class Saturday May 7 at the Richwood Gun and Game Club. Information is available at: http://richwoodgunandgameclub.org/train ... asses.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: When is Tactical too "Tactical"?

Post by Stryker74 »

Caver wrote:If you are interested in attending a Dave Spaulding class, the RIchwood Gun and Game Club and Ohio Shooting Sports are co-hosting his Essential Pistol class Saturday May 7 at the Richwood Gun and Game Club. Information is available at: http://richwoodgunandgameclub.org/train ... asses.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Unfortunately, I have on-call rotation that week. I :cry:

Unless I can make it to Miamisburg the following week, I might be out of luck this year for one Dave's classes.
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Re: When is Tactical too "Tactical"?

Post by ApexShootingTactics »

The words "tactical" and "advanced" are highly over used and misunderstood.

I never understood why "tactical" has to be attached to everything. I suppose it is just a marketing effort. I don't believe a vest, holster, belt or backpack can be "tactical". It is a concealment vest, or ballistic vest or load bearing vest. It is a drop leg holster or a thigh holster. It is a 3 day pack or sustainment pack or just a pack. Though if it is black, green, brown has a smidge of velcro or webbing it must be "Tactical"... Again, just marketing because it sounds cool to the masses.

As for "advanced" I also feel this is a marketing ploy. I believe in advanced applications of the fundamentals. The most high speed class I have instructed is HeloPlat, which is teaching people to shoot from a helicopter. On the surface people think this is highly advanced but it isn't. To be successful in shooting from a helicopter or any vehicle for that matter and not using a belt fed weapon you need to be solid on the fundamentals of marksmanship. Outside of that the ability to get hits from the helicopter it comes down to understanding the fundamentals and how some are sacrificed to a certain extent and what is acceptable in order to get hits. The only thing advanced is the lead needed when dealing with the moving platform in relationship to the target (moving or stationary). In the end, students walk away with more respect for the fundamentals and solid weapons handling skills.

The question shouldn't be when is tactical too tactical. The question should be, is the training relevant and realistic? Purposely throwing down a weapon and walking on it is a bit on the extreme. Tactical Response tends to push the envelope to make themselves different. In this case the exercise was not thought through and I doubt they regret it.

Our most abusive class is our Immediate Action class. It is centered on operating your firearms in the worst case scenarios like being injured and dealing with malfunctions. It abuses the weapons but everything we do is based on actual events. The drills are relevant.

Great post Stryker74, thanks for sharing!
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Re: When is Tactical too "Tactical"?

Post by Aesinsp »

What come to mind is.. ' a mechanical safety can and will fail..'
It wasn't meant to to dropped and walked on.. so all bets are off..!!
If its not conditioned , trained or 'programmed' to do this .. if this.. just wait and see what happens.. is the any other logical outcome?
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