In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby JU-87 » Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:03 pm

catfish86 wrote:I was reading the thread on the Baltimore riots outside a baseball park with a family in a car just going about their business. The car was stopped and rioters reaching in car... OK, what should you do in this scenario?..If I am carrying, what is the best course.


You asked. This is what I'd do:
First of all-Doors are already locked, my passengers and I wear seatbelts.
Step on gas.
Scrape any "hold-on"s off by swiping them against cars and telephone poles.
Stop at police station to fill out report.
My handgun never is drawn.
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby TSiWRX » Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:20 pm

In coming back to this.... I've been doing more reading and research into this as of the last little bit, and what's gotten me most worried now is that with the vehicle - particularly a newer one - is that it's really a fine balance between using the vehicle as the best means of escape and becoming trapped in it after it's rendered immobile due to such efforts.

There's only so much damage a vehicle will take. That airbag popping off? Yeah, that worries me, but it actually worries me less than the various safety systems built into modern vehicles these days which may render the vehicle immobile after it has incurred damage.

Yeah, I know, I know - this is where some may say "well, that's why I drive a vehicle that pre-dates such safety nannies.

I definitely think that there's merit to such arguments.

But at the same time, modern safety measures also undeniably make the vehicle more survivable in other contexts (some of which certainly overlaps with escape/evasion) - and there's also something to be said for a vehicle that is just less aged from exposure to the elements (well, I guess a full restomod would get rid of this concern, but then we come to the question of expense! :lol: ).

Sigh, nothing is ever easy.

Really, I'd love to take not only a vehicle tactics course in terms of the armed response (not to mention a class about how to physically fight inside the confines of a vehicle), but also a true tactical-defensive driving and vehicle extraction/escape class.....
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby Bama.45 » Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:23 pm

TSiWRX wrote:In coming back to this.... I've been doing more reading and research into this as of the last little bit, and what's gotten me most worried now is that with the vehicle - particularly a newer one - is that it's really a fine balance between using the vehicle as the best means of escape and becoming trapped in it after it's rendered immobile due to such efforts.

There's only so much damage a vehicle will take. That airbag popping off? Yeah, that worries me, but it actually worries me less than the various safety systems built into modern vehicles these days which may render the vehicle immobile after it has incurred damage.

Yeah, I know, I know - this is where some may say "well, that's why I drive a vehicle that pre-dates such safety nannies.

I definitely think that there's merit to such arguments.

But at the same time, modern safety measures also undeniably make the vehicle more survivable in other contexts (some of which certainly overlaps with escape/evasion) - and there's also something to be said for a vehicle that is just less aged from exposure to the elements (well, I guess a full restomod would get rid of this concern, but then we come to the question of expense! :lol: ).

Sigh, nothing is ever easy.

Really, I'd love to take not only a vehicle tactics course in terms of the armed response (not to mention a class about how to physically fight inside the confines of a vehicle), but also a true tactical-defensive driving and vehicle extraction/escape class.....



That's why I like my 88 GMC pick up :mrgreen:
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby ApexShootingTactics » Sun Sep 20, 2015 2:26 pm

Got an email this morning about this thread and the sender asked my opinion.

A lot of great info has already been passed along and in the end all the options given are viable depending on the situation. A few basic points I would like to add.

1. Know the politics of your environment. This seems simple but far too often people go to places that are volatile with the attitude that they are neutral on the topic of concern so they should be able to pass through or watch unmolested. If you find that you must pass through a volatile area then you are accepting of the risk and should have a plan.

2. Know the area or have information on the area you will be in. I still own a road atlas and when I travel I will print out detailed street maps for specific areas. Sure I use the GPS on my phone but it can fail and I don't want to be left guessing. Think of something similar to a 9/11 attack. Cell towers will be swamped and the chances of getting any fast service on your phone will be slim. If you have a true GPS (picks up satellites) then good but the paper map is still a great fail safe. Along with this topic you need to have some alternate routes. In your own town/city most people know 2-3 different ways to get to point A from point B. What gets people into trouble is when they are in unfamiliar territory. Stay orientated and have or understand alternate routes. This isn't just for civil unrest but it may be because of traffic congestion and it just helps you get to your destination faster.

3. Have a plan A, B, C, D..... Like the original post said, it is great to discuss this sort of thing. As I say in classes, the body won't go where the mind has not been. Think about all the possible scenarios and think of good, better and best options and contingencies to each. It sounds complex but is easier than you think. Though each situation is different and has a unique set of circumstances. In the end keep it simple and under stand the mission/goal.

4A. Have the tools and the training to accomplish the task. Keeping strictly with the idea that we are dealing with use of force and following the law. Having your handgun is a no brainer but what about ammo? It is so rare that those carrying concealed have additional magazines or ammo. This is a pet peace of mine because there have been numerous incidents where people run out or almost run out of ammo during an incident. 95% of the time I carry a spar mag on my person but I also have spares and ammo in my vehicle. Beyond that do you have a flashlight? Extra batteries or a charger in your car? Flashlights are a must for IDing a threat but are needed for so many other reasons when we are out and about. The flashlight also doubles as a striking tool but have you trained for that? How about OC (pepper spray)? Does is come out in a cone, stream or combo? This matters because a cone or mist will blow back in your vehicle if deploying it out a window.... Not a fun way to evade and escape with a face full of your own OC. Did you buy some inert equivalent of your OC and practice with it? How many applications does your bottle give you? This all matters when dealing with your contingency plans such as, I can spray threat 1 and 2 but need to strike threat 3 before we run.... Other striking implements in your car. Doesn't always need to be a dedicated baton or ASP. A baseball bat, golf club, tennis racket etc can do the job. The point is, have the tools, dedicated or improvised and train with them.

4B. Your vehicle is most certainly a defensive tool and it was brought up earlier but I want to add my 2 cents. Know the limitations of your vehicle. Like Bama45 touched on, his 88 GMC will withstand more punishment than most. Though it doesn't mean your Chevy Colbalt isn't a viable tool, you just need to understand the limitations. Striking objects like people or animals at slower speeds, like less than 20mph will lessen the chance of an airbag deploying and will still do some serious damage to the threat. Your vehicle will still sustain some damage but they are designed to sustain damage, the manufacturer built the car this way to help distribute the energy during a crash. In all my years as a cop I have seen hundreds of crashes and I am always surprise at how many cars are still drivable after the crash. In a slower speed impact most of the damage will be cosmetic. Now if you are running people over it needs to be justified and in doing so who cares how much damage is done to your car, chances are it won't be disabling damage, rather it will be functional damage. Functional damage, even the worst functional damage like a busted radiator will still get you several miles and hopefully that is away from danger. The ultimate goal is to get home safe, I will get a new car, I can't get a new life.

5. Situational awareness. You can live your life with your head in the sand. I don't necessarily believe in "by standards" at a certain point during an incident. When the {inappropriate language} hits the fan you are either part of the problem or part of the solution. If you are truly not involved then leave. These incidents are not spectator sports, don't drive by just to see what is going on or try to good some good cell phone video footage. When you see the crowd gathering in the middle of the street don't get closer to see what is going on, don't linger, don't be a spectator! Recognize a bad situation and then take action to develop the situation in your favor.

This is a great video of the LA Riots near the intersection of Florence and Normandy. This where several people were dragging from vehicles to include Reginald Denny. In this video you see people recognizing the problem and then speeding away, others slowed or stopped and I hate to say it but almost allowing themselves to be pulled from the vehicle.
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby TSiWRX » Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:47 pm

^ Excellent post - thank you! :)

ApexShootingTactics wrote:2. Know the area or have information on the area you will be in. I still own a road atlas and when I travel I will print out detailed street maps for specific areas. Sure I use the GPS on my phone but it can fail and I don't want to be left guessing. Think of something similar to a 9/11 attack. Cell towers will be swamped and the chances of getting any fast service on your phone will be slim. If you have a true GPS (picks up satellites) then good but the paper map is still a great fail safe. Along with this topic you need to have some alternate routes. In your own town/city most people know 2-3 different ways to get to point A from point B. What gets people into trouble is when they are in unfamiliar territory. Stay orientated and have or understand alternate routes. This isn't just for civil unrest but it may be because of traffic congestion and it just helps you get to your destination faster.


That's an excellent point I had not considered - even with a dedicated GPS, there are still considerations to be made.

First thing that comes to mind is how fast does your GPS remap after you've taken a wrong turn or a U-Turn? Even with today's processing speeds, it's still quite possible for you to literally "out-drive" the capabilities of your GPS to keep up.

With vehicle-integrated navigation, some may limit user input when the vehicle is in-motion. This may compromise your ability to adjust your end-plans, while on-the-move.

5. Situational awareness. You can live your life with your head in the sand. I don't necessarily believe in "by standards" at a certain point during an incident. When the {inappropriate language} hits the fan you are either part of the problem or part of the solution. If you are truly not involved then leave. These incidents are not spectator sports, don't drive by just to see what is going on or try to good some good cell phone video footage. When you see the crowd gathering in the middle of the street don't get closer to see what is going on, don't linger, don't be a spectator! Recognize a bad situation and then take action to develop the situation in your favor.


This is huge.

After all, how many times have we seen bad things (from the humorous to decidedly less so) happen to the person filming the action on his/her phone or camera?

I also think that this goes along with the mindset necessary to not only recognize/realize that something bad is happening, but to actually accept that it is and to respond appropriately to the threat.
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby Brian D. » Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:10 pm

Too bad that AAA doesn't mark its maps with "bad neighborhood" designations. I had to learn about that 70x20 square block swath of slums in Cleveland's east/southeast by driving through it.Thank goodness it was late morning, probably when most of the unincarcerated criminals are sleeping.

I won't make that mistake again. Trouble is there are still big cities away from home I might be in long enough to grab a meal or even stay overnight. It pays to ask locals things like that BEFORE a trip.
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby TSiWRX » Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:18 pm

^ +1.

The fabled "Anti Bad Area" function on GPSs. :lol:
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby ApexShootingTactics » Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:14 pm

Brian D. wrote:Too bad that AAA doesn't mark its maps with "bad neighborhood" designations. I had to learn about that 70x20 square block swath of slums in Cleveland's east/southeast by driving through it.Thank goodness it was late morning, probably when most of the unincarcerated criminals are sleeping.

I won't make that mistake again. Trouble is there are still big cities away from home I might be in long enough to grab a meal or even stay overnight. It pays to ask locals things like that BEFORE a trip.


Brian D, That would be an awesome App, maybe color code a map based on certain crime stats like car jacking, thefts, assaults and so on. Prior to a trip you could check the map and plan accordingly. Hell, it would help pick a safe area for hotels, gas stations and so on.
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby rDigital » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:12 pm

ApexShootingTactics wrote:
Brian D. wrote:Too bad that AAA doesn't mark its maps with "bad neighborhood" designations. I had to learn about that 70x20 square block swath of slums in Cleveland's east/southeast by driving through it.Thank goodness it was late morning, probably when most of the unincarcerated criminals are sleeping.

I won't make that mistake again. Trouble is there are still big cities away from home I might be in long enough to grab a meal or even stay overnight. It pays to ask locals things like that BEFORE a trip.


Brian D, That would be an awesome App, maybe color code a map based on certain crime stats like car jacking, thefts, assaults and so on. Prior to a trip you could check the map and plan accordingly. Hell, it would help pick a safe area for hotels, gas stations and so on.

Google maps used to have an "avoid ghetto" feature, but the PC police shut it down.
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby evan price » Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:47 am

Brian D. wrote:Too bad that AAA doesn't mark its maps with "bad neighborhood" designations. I had to learn about that 70x20 square block swath of slums in Cleveland's east/southeast by driving through it.Thank goodness it was late morning, probably when most of the unincarcerated criminals are sleeping.

I won't make that mistake again. Trouble is there are still big cities away from home I might be in long enough to grab a meal or even stay overnight. It pays to ask locals things like that BEFORE a trip.


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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby Brian D. » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:14 pm

My notion about bad neighborhood map markings etc was half in jest. With a frequently updated app of some kind it might be feasible. Big cities constantly have areas in flux, usually turning for the worse.

Saw an excellent example of that in Nashville during two trips maybe three years apart. Exit I stayed at the first time..whoa Nellie had it gone downhill. Got back on the road and went to the suburbs at the other end of town.
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby Tweed Ring » Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:13 pm

I like big C-cell Mag-lights. Never know when one has to illuminate the front seat of my car.
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby M-Quigley » Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:41 pm

This is a pretty dated experience (35 years ago) but when I and some other people were driven in an armored vehicle from the airport to a location that we were to protect during the Miami Riots, the driver mentioned that he wasn't planning on making any stops getting there, and that there were reports of snipers. He said that he might have to take evasive maneuvers. It was almost as crazy as that old joke about how I grew up in a neighborhood so bad I was a tail gunner on a bakery truck.
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby Dieselnut » Sat Apr 23, 2016 5:46 pm

Lock doors & drive away. Those not letting go, will be cut loose by my spiderco civilian.
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby TSiWRX » Sun May 01, 2016 11:09 am

^ Dieselnut (and M-Qiugley, in the context of his post above 8) ) more than likely won't have any problems - if I'm not reading too much into his chosen screen-name/handle :P :) , but "driving through" continues to be a thought-provoking thing for me.

Why?

Take a look at this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=551_wlV44GU

^ This is a recent Detroit gas-station shooting that was caught quite clearly on CCTV.

At time-point 0:30 in the video, the male in the black hoodie is pushed over, falls, and, at least for the moment, does not rise.

The driver reacts by time-point 0:32, tries to get away...but look at what happens between time-points 0:33 to 0:35. The vehicle simply cannot make it over the fallen man. The driver is forced to reverse and attempt again, and that's when the driver was injured.

With that in mind, I've asked these questions before, and I'll ask them again:

- What can my vehicle actually drive into/through or over? (And with today's electronic safety systems, will your vehicle even allow you to do so?)
- What kind of damage can my vehicle sustain before the airbags trigger?
- What kind of damage can my vehicle sustain before the fuel cut-off triggers? can and/or how can the vehicle be re-started?

Even for those who - rightfully - believe that an older, "analog" vehicle without modern safety features would make for a better escape/challenge vehicle, exactly how in-repair is said vehicle?

Who hasn't seen someone, recently, get stuck in some mud or snow because they thought their vehicle could handle it or break something and become immobile on an unimproved road or even just broke down on the side of the highway?

[ This is the kind of stuff that keeps me up at night.... ]
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