In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

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In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby catfish86 » Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:10 pm

I was reading the thread on the Baltimore riots outside a baseball park with a family in a car just going about their business. The car was stopped and rioters reaching in car... OK, what should you do in this scenario?

I start this thread because as a soldier (not a commando, but in spec ops units) I was taught that discussions thinking through situations results before they arise results in better actions.

We have the example of the SUV that ran over the bikers to escape.

If I am carrying, what is the best course.
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and the Wisdom to know the difference.

Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.

Gun control is racist.
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby Tweed Ring » Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:37 pm

There don't seem to be good options. Any damage done to protesters and/or community organizers can be politicized by the pols and weaponized by the Lewinsky media.

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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby TSiWRX » Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:17 pm

Fade into the background, join the protest. I think back to that incident in Fugerson ( viewtopic.php?f=42&t=82562&hilit=riot ), and I can't help but wonder why the rioters targeted that vehicle specifically, out of a line of others. Pride takes a back-seat to survival, in my books, any day of the week. Why not pretend to join "the cause" of the rioters, and try to make yourself less of a target?

But truthfully, I think awareness and avoidance are key. First order of business, know what's going on enough to be able to avoid those hot-spots.

Nevertheless, there's just going to be those days.....

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/s ... ur-vehicle
http://activeselfprotection.com/blog/us ... ape-a-mob/

The gun really is a last resort.
- How accurate are you, shooting one-handed? how about when there's some extremely close-quarters pressure being put on you? how about when you have to manage another task (not just driving, but driving through a crowd while paying enough attention that you don't do enough damage to the vehicle or otherwise render it inoperable/stuck)?
- How many rounds do you have?
- So et's say you have a lot - how fast/effectively can you reload? single-handed? how about stoppage reduction (don't think that's likely - think again, particularly in close-quarters)?

I think that once the gun comes out, it's going to end one of two ways - the crowd scatters and you actually get out...or things get really bleak, and you literally become the focal point for *everyone's* anger.

Drive out, don't plow out - there's only so much damage a vehicle can take.
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby pirateguy191 » Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:05 pm

Don't stop.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby Brian D. » Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:48 pm

TSiWRX wrote:Fade into the background, join the protest. I think back to that incident in Fugerson ( http://www.ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic. ... hilit=riot ), and I can't help but wonder why the rioters targeted that vehicle specifically, out of a line of others. Pride takes a back-seat to survival, in my books, any day of the week. Why not pretend to join "the cause" of the rioters, and try to make yourself less of a target?


Should i bust store windows and take a big screen television while I'm with them, too?

I think you're ignoring the fact that some if not most of these "protests" lately have been pretty monochromatic in attendance. How are you or I going to blend in? I'd rather take my chances using the vehicle and bullets to get away than hang out with these knuckleheads for even a few minutes.
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby Tweed Ring » Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:17 pm

T-shirts with appropriately militant politically correct slogans, worn by the entire family?
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby djthomas » Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:24 pm

Tweed Ring wrote:Any damage done to protesters and/or community organizers can be politicized by the pols and weaponized by the Lewinsky media.

Much like the Bruce Jenner spectacle I don't care what the pols and/or the media think. If I am legitimately in a situation where I must defend myself and my family I assure you, what some dolt might say on some Sunday morning talk show will be the least of my concerns. Said differently, one must first survive the encounter to be in a position to care about public opinion.
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby Tweed Ring » Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:29 pm

Conversely, I am pleased by the Bruce Jenner revelations. That Republican Party can clearly use more Republican conservative women...
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby TSiWRX » Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:21 pm

Brian D. wrote:Should i bust store windows and take a big screen television while I'm with them, too?


Hey, if this means that I finally get a flat-screen TV....... :P :lol:

OK, no, in all seriousness:

I think you're ignoring the fact that some if not most of these "protests" lately have been pretty monochromatic in attendance. How are you or I going to blend in? I'd rather take my chances using the vehicle and bullets to get away than hang out with these knuckleheads for even a few minutes.


While I agree overall, I think that assessment is in danger of being too absolute. What I'm advocating - and I do apologize in that I did not state this more clearly from the beginning (in my previous post) - is that we should take a look at the situation as a whole, and see if perhaps there is a better decision we could be making.

You're absolutely right, Brian D., many of these events are rather monochromatic in nature, and what would happen to a person who is obviously not of the same ethnic or even socioeconomic background of the locals is, I think at best, risky.

But let's look at that Ferguson (my apologies here for having spelled it absolutely incorrectly in my previous post :oops: ) incident. From that video, it is clear that while the vast majority of the participants in the riot were of a certain ethnic background, there were those who were not. Scenes from Baltimore, via a Google Images search, seem to suggest the same.

I don't know - I can't say for certain. But what if that person in the Subaru popped out of their car and sounded-off with a few lines that were along the same mentality as the crowd, and then pulled aside someone who looked like they had a say with at least a few in the crowd, and then made up a pathetic "I've got a sick baby in the hospital, and I need to get by, can you please help me out by clearing some foot traffic 'cause I don't want to be runnin' over nobody?" plea?

What I'm suggesting is that we not be locked into the tools, and let the tools drive our tactics. Carry a hammer, and the world's full of nails. :wink:

I agree, there are advantages to staying with the car. However, I don't believe that it is an absolute.

I cited only one of Greg Ellifritz's articles above, but I also encourage everyone to take a look at his other "mob/urban-violence" related writings. In each, he explores the pros and cons of various tactics and strategies, as well as highlights critical technique-related considerations (i.e. don't just drive on the street - can you mount the curb/sidewalk and have a relatively clear route? maybe there's a clear side-street a few hundred feet back, let's try reverse; don't try "ramming through" at-speed - look at the damage a deer can do to a vehicle...yes, you can get out of immediate harm even with a broken radiator, but how far will that broken radiator take you and how far are you from true safety; etc.).

- I'd try to avoid it if I could.

- I'd just keep driving if I can mange it (here, consideration needs to be paid to points 3 and 4 in the "Surviving Mob Attacks on your Vehicle" article that Ellifritz authored, but look also at the relevant pearls in his other articles, such as: http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/m ... flash-mobs and http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/y ... fire-bombs).

- But everything else, in my view, needs to stay flexible.
Allen - Shaker Heights, Ohio
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby catfish86 » Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:32 pm

I would also like top add that in the NY bike mob/SUV confrontation, the bikers eventually ran him down and dragged him out of his SUV. How many blows with a motorcycle helmet to the head would it take to kill a man? Not something I want to find out.

That was a good training video with good pointers...push the people with the bumper, don't plow. Most people in front will get out of the way for self preservation and attempt to avoid running people over.
God,
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.

Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.

Gun control is racist.
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby kcclark » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:11 am

In the early '90s on a trip from Harrisburg, PA to DC, I screwed up my directions and ended up making my way through Baltimore at night. I was on a main road in what I figured was the downtown section. Traffic was crawling. Suddenly I found myself surrounded by a huge street brawl. Lots of people fighting. Cowered in my car. Crowd eventually dissipated and traffic started to move. I don't remember any cops ever showing up. Scary time.
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby Klingon00 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:30 pm

kcclark wrote:In the early '90s on a trip from Harrisburg, PA to DC, I screwed up my directions and ended up making my way through Baltimore at night. I was on a main road in what I figured was the downtown section. Traffic was crawling. Suddenly I found myself surrounded by a huge street brawl. Lots of people fighting. Cowered in my car. Crowd eventually dissipated and traffic started to move. I don't remember any cops ever showing up. Scary time.


Yep, stuff happens. New to an area? Desperate to stop for gas but don't realize that exit you pulled off on was a bad decision? Even in relatively nice neighborhoods, criminals can easily set up a temporary road block with 30 of their closest friends. Anyone can be sucker punched.

I've been in a similar situation when I was younger and didn't know better in Cincinnati. Wrong exit, wrong neighborhood, and almost the wrong time. Fortunately I got by unscathed but it was a real eye opener to how quickly and seemingly random such events can be.
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby catfish86 » Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:12 am

I was stationed in Panama with the US Army and was riding shotgun in a 2 1/2 ton truck (about the size of a dump truck) coming over the Bridge of the Americas. When we got off on the side street used to approach our base, we encountered a crowd blocking the street. It was a demonstration by the party of Noriega and a US Army vehicle was NOT a welcome guest. Very tense. Our training was to not react to anything. These vehicles are true trucks, but there are no locks on the doors and the windows don't close very well. We received random objects thrown, views of bare ends, our tires were {inappropriate language} on, spit was flying while some gave us one fingered salutes. Our eyes were straight ahead and we didn't even turn to talk to each other. No radio so we were not able to call for help. The Panamanian police found it amusing. The driver inched forward slowly. We could easily have been yanked out of the vehicle since the doors had no locks. Eventually we reached the end of the crowd and got to base. We reported through the chain and all US Army traffic over the bridge was stopped for the day.

We did nothing other than drive from point A to point B and it was a location where there was no other route and no possibility to see it happening as the side street was not visible from the bridge.
God,
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.

Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.

Gun control is racist.
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby TSiWRX » Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:24 am

^ Not giving/maintaining eye-contact and to maintain physical composure, I believe, are both very important.

The former is commonly given as advice for defusing or avoiding common (even minor) road-rage situations.

The latter certainly works to cut-off the feedback that those who want your attention are craving for.
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Re: In vehicle, find self stopped in riot...

Postby Aesinsp » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:10 pm

catfish86 wrote:I was reading the thread on the Baltimore riots outside a baseball park with a family in a car just going about their business. The car was stopped and rioters reaching in car... OK, what should you do in this scenario?

I start this thread because as a soldier (not a commando, but in spec ops units) I was taught that discussions thinking through situations results before they arise results in better actions.

We have the example of the SUV that ran over the bikers to escape.

If I am carrying, what is the best course.

Anyone reaching into my vehicle has most likely broken a window to do so.. I'd like to think that brandishing at that time would be prudent, but also as stated before, I'd keep rolling.
The enemy's goal is chaos and division.. United we stand - divided we fall.
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