Question for vets, especially SpecOps veterans

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Re: Question for vets, especially SpecOps veterans

Post by Mustang380gal »

Quit bickering!
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Re: Question for vets, especially SpecOps veterans

Post by curmudgeon3 »

The word "bickering" doesn't seem quite appropriate to describe two Warriors defending the Esprit de Corps of their individual Military Units. Want to try another word ?
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Re: Question for vets, especially SpecOps veterans

Post by carmen fovozzo »

Mustang380gal wrote:Am I gonna see you at a shoot this year, Carmen? 8)

I would like to see the training but most likely would not participate in getting a ranking...I will hold to my military qualification I received in the ARMY Way back in the 60's.....Expert on the M-1 and M-14....Still have the paper score sheet.

Besides I can't hit the side of a barn now...to old but still pretty... :wink:
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Re: Question for vets, especially SpecOps veterans

Post by Javelin Man »

carmen fovozzo wrote:
Mustang380gal wrote:Am I gonna see you at a shoot this year, Carmen? 8)

I would like to see the training but most likely would not participate in getting a ranking...I will hold to my military qualification I received in the ARMY Way back in the 60's.....Expert on the M-1 and M-14....Still have the paper score sheet.

Besides I can't hit the side of a barn now...to old but still pretty... :wink:
I learned a lot from the training and the history but was not interested in receiving the Rifleman Patch, only in learning to shoot the best I could. That and my bolt action Mossberg couldn't be reloaded fast enough for the timed portions of the AQT. Some of the students with their tricked-out 10/22's and AR15's snickered at the old M44 with iron sights but the instructors nodded knowingly. Which explained why I was the only one to hit the 100,200,300,400 and 400 yard headshot targets.

I used that training the next day on the 500 yard range with my K31, had to use Kentucky windage and a spotter, but hit the target. That was very satisfying.

It helps to have equipment better than one's self. And to be pretty. :wink:
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Re: Question for vets, especially SpecOps veterans

Post by JU-87 »

ApexShootingTactics wrote:JU-87,

Sounds like you have an axe to grind. Every unit, every organization, neighborhood, sports team, business, church, community has their small population of undesirables. My first unit was FAST Company... I believe I have a better idea of the current abilities of our SOF units...

Your statements are most certainly insulting. They are based on your experiences from 30 years ago and you seem to be basing everything on the criminal actions of a few or the inability of a few.
Apex
The OP wondered how he "stacked up" with SOF/Military regarding his current marksmanship skill. I responded with what I actually experienced while I served in the 1st Ranger Battalion. He asked about the "average" ability...I think the mean average is BELOW what he can do right now.
You state that my writing of my experiences are "insulting". Take it that way if you choose. It sounds to me like you have an "exposed nerve", are too touchy, or just uninformed on the topic of overall marksmanship in our military.

Like I wrote before, a few where "outstanding". Many where good. But a few actually were terrible. That is part of the truth.

I belive you met some "high quality" guys. But if you think everyone in SOF is an expert Marksman or a "fine person" you are incredibly nieve. I think the great shooters, who are currently in our SOF/Military- were great shooters BEFORE they swore in. :shock:

You make a point: If I do have an "axe to grind" it's this: I don't believe in myths. Here are my "MYTHBUSTERs":
1)The US Army places a VERY LOW importance on individual rifle marksmanship. I believe this affects the entire Army, incl Ranger, SF. This is a FACT, and pertains to the OP's original question.
2)That everyone in SOF/US Military is a super-hero. This is simply military recruter Bull Manure.

As far as I know, only the USMC trains EVERY recruit to shoot past 300M. Skip all the "OORAHHH" bull manure. I respect the USMC because they CARE about marksmanship.( I'm certain they have the SAME percentage of "bad actors" the other branches have)

I think I've totally summed up my opinion on this. :)

Best regards.
Last edited by JU-87 on Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Question for vets, especially SpecOps veterans

Post by JU-87 »

carmen fovozzo wrote:Just curious......Appleseed Rifleman is what equivalent in the Military ranking....?

IMO, about 3 levels higher than a US Army "Expert Marksman" badge. :shock: :)
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun... Let your gun, therefore, be the constant companion of your walks." Thomas Jefferson, 1785.

Read "War is a Racket" by MG Smedly Butler,USMC. He was awarded the Medal of Honor twice. http://warisaracket.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Henry Kissinger said, "Military Men are just dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns in Foreign Policy" and has not denied this quote to this day.
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Re: Question for vets, especially SpecOps veterans

Post by carmen fovozzo »

Ju. When were you in the service ? How long did you serve ? What was your rank when you left..Were you ever busted ?
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Re: Question for vets, especially SpecOps veterans

Post by EChryst »

Not to stray too far off topic - but the military as a whole in the early 80s - was a totally different animal.

In the late 70s and early 80s the 82nd was known as the jumping junkies - and I'm sure the same thing happened across the line.

Today it is a different army.

There are still turds in every punch bowl, my time in the 82d (during Hurricane Katrina and OEF VII) made me realize that every unit has them, even the "elite" units.

BUT, the amount of squared away, hard charging troops are 99 to 1. With that 1 being out processed ASAP. We needed as many troops as we could get before going down range, yet we still separated a soldier, 2 months before wheels up due to failing a urinalysis.

Now, in legland, it may be a different story, but.... this ain't your daddy's Army.

JU-87, don't let your time in service confuse you with a military that's been doing it's wartime mission for the last 14 years. (And I'm saying that in a way that I'm not trying to sound like a butthead)
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Re: Question for vets, especially SpecOps veterans

Post by carmen fovozzo »

JU..According to Appleseed officials Appleseed marksman is equivalent to Military Expert....you can dispute it all you want, but that's a fact Jack.. :)

And were are you ? Hope you can answer my questions...
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Re: Question for vets, especially SpecOps veterans

Post by Mustang380gal »

I said "as best as I can tell". He may be more right than me.
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Re: Question for vets, especially SpecOps veterans

Post by carmen fovozzo »

You were also correct...Military..210+
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Re: Question for vets, especially SpecOps veterans

Post by Bama.45 »

I was a decent shot before entering the Corps..But, I was fortunate enough to have a dad that loved firearms and was surrounded by Pro 2A family..Had my first .22 rifle at 6 years old..ammo was like a penny a shot for .22LR,,,My dad taught me gun safety most importantly, but he didn't have any formal training..Just the skills passed down through our family...But think about it..Most of the Kentucky Riflemen in the Revolutionary War had no formal training..And the British Army relied on numbers instead of skill when it came to marksmanship...That's why the Sharpshooters from Kentucky and West Virginia decimated them..And did it from 300 yds at times...But the Corps honed my skills and taught me proper techniques..Which made me better or at least more consistent with my marksmanship...I still believe in Iron sights..Don't shoot out past 100 meters these days, because I don't know of any place up here to shoot out any farther lol..I think the main thing is having a love for shooting and determination and practice..With practice being the main thing..So yes..A civilian can become as good if not better than someone trained as a Spec Ops sniper.
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Re: Question for vets, especially SpecOps veterans

Post by Morne »

Aside from the comments about what the military was like when and in which units, a subject I have zero firsthand knowledge about, I must echo the endorsement of Appleseed.

Appleseed is excellent and fun. You'll learn positions, history, trigger control, cadence of fire, breathing, NPOA, mils/minutes/clicks and a zillion other things. Whether or not you get the patch is up to you. A Rifleman perseveres. No one I have ever seen showed up to an Appleseed has earned their patch on day one. Everybody, even the best shooters, can learn new ways to shoot better.

It is NOT a tactical carbine course. I would like to go to a tactical carbine course some day (TDI's class keeps tempting me), but this ain't it. So if you're looking for a high-speed, low-drag group of operators in full battle rattle to hang out with all day...keep looking. Further, most of the tactical carbine guys will snicker at the "chicken wing" stance that you learn for the standing position in Appleseed. I doubt they'd snicker at your rapid hits on target, mind you.

Go to an Appleseed shoot. Have fun. Bring an attitude of learning.
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Re: Question for vets, especially SpecOps veterans

Post by JU-87 »

carmen fovozzo wrote:Ju. When were you in the service ? How long did you serve ? What was your rank when you left..Were you ever busted ?
1983-1987.
4 years, enlisted.
SP4(E-4)
No. No UCMJ action. Recieved Good Conduct Medal.

Why do you ask? Is it because I have other than glowing praise about the branch I served in? It's just the truth. I was asked 3 times to re-enlist (nothing special there. All good soldiers are asked to re-up.).

I thought I could do better than the US Army, and I was right.
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun... Let your gun, therefore, be the constant companion of your walks." Thomas Jefferson, 1785.

Read "War is a Racket" by MG Smedly Butler,USMC. He was awarded the Medal of Honor twice. http://warisaracket.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Henry Kissinger said, "Military Men are just dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns in Foreign Policy" and has not denied this quote to this day.
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Re: Question for vets, especially SpecOps veterans

Post by SeanC »

EChryst wrote:Keep in mind the upper tier guys shoot a LOT of rounds. Sometimes hundreds of rounds a day for a full week of range time.
You just absolutely wouldn't believe how many rounds these guys shoot. It's a completely unrealistic figure, except that the numbers are pretty regularly confirmed by different people who have served in T-1 units. In Eric Haney's book Inside Delta Force (which I thoroughly enjoyed reading), he writes that they would shoot thousands of rounds a day. Insane, but after that level of practice, he said they didn't really need optics, or even aiming. They had moved shooting into an instinctive activity, where the body just kind of automatically lined up the shot where the mind wanted it to go. So if you can afford thousands of rounds a day, every day, and a few hours of range time every day, you can be elite, too.

In my Reserve JAG unit, we're lucky to shoot 200 rounds a year. Lol.
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