Unsafe Tactics During Training
Moderators: Mustang380gal, Coordinators, Moderators
-
- Posts: 78
- Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:00 pm
Unsafe Tactics During Training
Over the Memorial Day weekend I took the 20hr OPOTA Firearm Course. A fellow student who was by far the best shot and who had the most active expierience was shooting a Sig DA 9MM.He was using a level 3 retention holster way down on his thigh.He was keeping the weapon cocked in the holster because in order to qualify you had to go double action on first shot. He told me he always cocked the weapon on the draw. What do any of you feel about this tactic.Should I have squealed on him to the instructor?
- MyWifeSaidYes
- OFCC Coordinator
- Posts: 5449
- Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:59 pm
- Location: Central Ohio
- Contact:
Re: Unsafe Tactics During Training
I don't understand.
Did he keep the pistol cocked or did he cock it while drawing?
Either way, was it against the instructor's rules or agency policies?
As far as practicality, that's not something I would do, but I don't know that it is unsafe.
Did he keep the pistol cocked or did he cock it while drawing?
Either way, was it against the instructor's rules or agency policies?
As far as practicality, that's not something I would do, but I don't know that it is unsafe.
MyWifeSaidYes
- FlyinCedar
- Posts: 1755
- Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:07 am
- Location: Kenton, OH
Re: Unsafe Tactics During Training
Squealed to the instructor? For what exactly? Did you not like the idea that he was cocking it so his first shot was single action instead of double? Did it negatively impact your training value in some way?
Nothing was unsafe about what he was doing.
Nothing was unsafe about what he was doing.
-
- Posts: 78
- Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:00 pm
Re: Unsafe Tactics During Training
He started out by cocking the hammer as part of his draw. later i noticed it was cocked in his holster. Some pistols like FN and HK have the ability to be cocked and be on safe but I do not think Sig has that feature.
-
- Posts: 78
- Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:00 pm
Re: Unsafe Tactics During Training
In order to qualify the first shot was supposed to be double action. A DA SEMI Auto cocked in a retention holster does not look safe to me.
- Stryker74
- OFCC Member
- Posts: 1470
- Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:15 pm
- Location: Grove City, Ohio
Re: Unsafe Tactics During Training
The main thing is trigger control (finger high on slide, outside of trigger guard) in terms of safety when going into or coming out of a holster. Add good muzzle control on the draw, then he could be relatively safe.
The biggest thing that bothers me is the Level 3 holster. I do not like any active retention around the trigger guard. Even TDI will disable that when in their classes and make you sign an additional waiver. Too many stories about people shooting themselves because that active trigger guard retention snagging that trigger. Even Blackhawk puts a disclaimer in their instructions for the Serpa holsters.
I didn't notice if any of the DA guys were dropping the hammer before holstering this weekend at TDI. There were a few people shooting H&Ks there - though most were using striker fired varieties as their guns (lots of Glocks and M&Ps).
The biggest thing that bothers me is the Level 3 holster. I do not like any active retention around the trigger guard. Even TDI will disable that when in their classes and make you sign an additional waiver. Too many stories about people shooting themselves because that active trigger guard retention snagging that trigger. Even Blackhawk puts a disclaimer in their instructions for the Serpa holsters.
I didn't notice if any of the DA guys were dropping the hammer before holstering this weekend at TDI. There were a few people shooting H&Ks there - though most were using striker fired varieties as their guns (lots of Glocks and M&Ps).
Aaron
NRA Life Endowment Member
NRA Certified Instructor - Pistol, Refuse To Be A Victim
NRA Range Safety Officer
Kentucky CCDW Certified Instructor
Want to become more active with OFCC, and the fight for your rights? Click the link to find out how!
http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=64852" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
NRA Life Endowment Member
NRA Certified Instructor - Pistol, Refuse To Be A Victim
NRA Range Safety Officer
Kentucky CCDW Certified Instructor
Want to become more active with OFCC, and the fight for your rights? Click the link to find out how!
http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=64852" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
-
- Posts: 16237
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:42 pm
- Location: SW Ohio
Re: Unsafe Tactics During Training
Before Glocks and similar guns came along you would see two types of semi autos:
1) Single action cocked and locked
2) Double action for either just the first shot, or double action only
The single actions were considered safe to carry condition one a/k/a cocked and locked. The DA's were expected to be decocked before holstering. Part of the reason is that some of the DA guns weren't completely drop-safe with a cocked hammer. Also, with the hammer back and no slide lock thumb safety, they could get pushed out of battery pretty easily during the reholster.
Nowadays the striker fired designs (Glock, XD, M&P, etc) sometimes have neither a manual safety, nor a way to decock them so the lines have been blurred, if you will. They have active and passive safety devices that help prevent accidental (and even negligent) discharges. It is a very good idea to make sure the slides on them don't get pushed out of battery while holstering though.
Some believe that cocked and unlocked is fine for guns such as the Sig 226 and such. Personally though, knowing what I stated above about the old school DA/SA guns such as the Sig 226, I'd require them to be decocked before holstering if I was running a firing line. Learning how to get a first shot hit with that longer trigger pull is part of the deal, and not hard to get the hang of, if one is willing to put in the practice. Taking the "short cut" described by the OP sounds like someone looking to take the easy way out, while adding a certain amount of potential, needless danger to things.
1) Single action cocked and locked
2) Double action for either just the first shot, or double action only
The single actions were considered safe to carry condition one a/k/a cocked and locked. The DA's were expected to be decocked before holstering. Part of the reason is that some of the DA guns weren't completely drop-safe with a cocked hammer. Also, with the hammer back and no slide lock thumb safety, they could get pushed out of battery pretty easily during the reholster.
Nowadays the striker fired designs (Glock, XD, M&P, etc) sometimes have neither a manual safety, nor a way to decock them so the lines have been blurred, if you will. They have active and passive safety devices that help prevent accidental (and even negligent) discharges. It is a very good idea to make sure the slides on them don't get pushed out of battery while holstering though.
Some believe that cocked and unlocked is fine for guns such as the Sig 226 and such. Personally though, knowing what I stated above about the old school DA/SA guns such as the Sig 226, I'd require them to be decocked before holstering if I was running a firing line. Learning how to get a first shot hit with that longer trigger pull is part of the deal, and not hard to get the hang of, if one is willing to put in the practice. Taking the "short cut" described by the OP sounds like someone looking to take the easy way out, while adding a certain amount of potential, needless danger to things.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!
********************************************************************************
1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
********************************************************************************
1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
- Stryker74
- OFCC Member
- Posts: 1470
- Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:15 pm
- Location: Grove City, Ohio
Re: Unsafe Tactics During Training
I had never really thought much about that after carrying a 1911 for quite a while, but it came up this past weekend at TDI. The re-holster technique they taught was to put the trigger finger way out to the side (far from the trigger guard), and then put the thumb on the back of the slide during reholster. The idea is to prevent from going out of battery (or least notice the movement that would take you out of battery).Brian D. wrote: It is a very good idea to make sure the slides on them don't get pushed out of battery while holstering though.
Aaron
NRA Life Endowment Member
NRA Certified Instructor - Pistol, Refuse To Be A Victim
NRA Range Safety Officer
Kentucky CCDW Certified Instructor
Want to become more active with OFCC, and the fight for your rights? Click the link to find out how!
http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=64852" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
NRA Life Endowment Member
NRA Certified Instructor - Pistol, Refuse To Be A Victim
NRA Range Safety Officer
Kentucky CCDW Certified Instructor
Want to become more active with OFCC, and the fight for your rights? Click the link to find out how!
http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=64852" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
-
- Posts: 17812
- Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:15 am
Re: Unsafe Tactics During Training
Range officers should have noticed this problem. Failing that, a student so noticing should have made the problem known to the range officers.
I was on the range when the guy next to me was cocking his revolver, while it was in the holster. On the draw, he managed to fire a round though his right pocket, which went down his leg, and the bullet exited just above his knee. Not a pretty sight.
I was on the range when the guy next to me was cocking his revolver, while it was in the holster. On the draw, he managed to fire a round though his right pocket, which went down his leg, and the bullet exited just above his knee. Not a pretty sight.
-
- Posts: 78
- Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:00 pm
Re: Unsafe Tactics During Training
I have two DA Semi Auto .45 and the single action trigger pull is very light.I would never carry cocked in any type of holster.Too much risk for ND. I had no problem with his technique of cocking on his draw. He was trying to get around that first long DA pull.
-
- Posts: 16237
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:42 pm
- Location: SW Ohio
Re: Unsafe Tactics During Training
For what it's worth, noted firearms instructor Colonel Jeff Cooper used to sort of okay that technique for those using DA/SA semi autos in his classes. As an alternative, he would also allude to the notion that it might be alright to just quickly fire that double action first shot (as though "throwing it away") and only afterwards start worrying about the use of sights with subsequent shots.pistolepete wrote:I have two DA Semi Auto .45 and the single action trigger pull is very light.I would never carry cocked in any type of holster.Too much risk for ND. I had no problem with his technique of cocking on his draw. He was trying to get around that first long DA pull.
As much respect as I had/have for Cooper's opinions, couldn't ever warm up to those particular ideas. The first requires more finite skills at speed than necessary. And the "throw it downrange thataway" concept? Not very sound from a safety perspective unless ALL your time is spent in sparsely populated areas such as Arizona desert or on the moon perhaps. Really, as the popularity of DA/SA autos increased, practiced shooters were able to get pretty good at making hits with that first, double action shot. After all, in real life that may the ONLY shot there's time for.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!
********************************************************************************
1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
********************************************************************************
1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
- MyWifeSaidYes
- OFCC Coordinator
- Posts: 5449
- Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:59 pm
- Location: Central Ohio
- Contact:
Re: Unsafe Tactics During Training
"Hey, Mister Instructor. That guy is pretty good. He's cocking his hammer while it's still in the holster. I want to be as good as him. Should I be cocking my hammer that way as well?"
MyWifeSaidYes
- Mr. Glock
- OFCC Patron Member
- Posts: 8965
- Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:20 pm
- Location: NE Ohio
Re: Unsafe Tactics During Training
If you can't shoot a DA/SA as designed, maybe you should carry something else.
OFCC Patron, GOA, SAF, YouTube 2A Patreon, NRA Benefactor Life & Hot Stove League Member
-
- Posts: 141
- Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:25 am
- Location: Medina County Ohio
- Contact:
Re: Unsafe Tactics During Training
Train the way you want to fight and you will fight the way you train.
The shooters actions are a failure on his part. If life presents us with an opportunity to thumb a hammer back then by all means take it but chances are the fight won't afford us such opportunities.
The shooters actions are a failure on his part. If life presents us with an opportunity to thumb a hammer back then by all means take it but chances are the fight won't afford us such opportunities.
-Andrew
http://apexshooting.com
https://www.facebook.com/ApexShootingTactics
By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail. -Benjamin Franklin
http://apexshooting.com
https://www.facebook.com/ApexShootingTactics
By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail. -Benjamin Franklin
- pirateguy191
- Posts: 11009
- Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:06 pm
- Location: 44146
Re: Unsafe Tactics During Training
Was the OPOTA class at Stonewall?pistolepete wrote:Over the Memorial Day weekend I took the 20hr OPOTA Firearm Course. A fellow student who was by far the best shot and who had the most active expierience was shooting a Sig DA 9MM.He was using a level 3 retention holster way down on his thigh.He was keeping the weapon cocked in the holster because in order to qualify you had to go double action on first shot. He told me he always cocked the weapon on the draw. What do any of you feel about this tactic.Should I have squealed on him to the instructor?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem." - Ronald Reagan
"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." ~ Mike Vanderboegh
NRA member, NRA basic pistol instructor, DBACB
"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." ~ Mike Vanderboegh
NRA member, NRA basic pistol instructor, DBACB