PD run training.

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fyrfytr310
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PD run training.

Post by fyrfytr310 »

What are you thoughts on this course description/price? I'm not a new shooter per se but it would be good for me to get some shoot and move in. Also, what are your thoughts on PD training for civilians in general?

Thanks!

Course description:
Upcoming New Shooter Weapon course. The Hamilton Police Department is pleased to announce the New Shooter Training course (skill building) CCW course for current CCW permit holders. The course will be held from 8:30AM to 1:30PM on April 5th 2014 or 5:30PM to 10:30PM April 14th 2014 at the Hamilton Police Department Firing Range. The cost for the class is $150.00 (due in advance, check or money orders only. No cash will be accepted). The class will include approximately 5 hours of instruction by Ohio Peace Officer Training Commission Certified Firearms Instructors and NRA Certified Pistol Instructors, student handout materials and ammunition for 380 ACP, 38/357, 9MM, 40 S&W and 45ACP caliber handguns. These will be the only calibers permitted. Each student will be required to have a good quality handgun with at least two magazines or two speed loaders depending as to whether the student is shooting a semi auto or revolver. Students will also be required to have a firearm holster and flashlight. The class is limited to a maximum of 10 students. Additional training dates will be posted or you can contact xxxxxxxx at the Hamilton Police Department for further details and dates.

The NEW SHOOTER TRAINING COURSE will cover such topics as: Marksmanship: weapon presentation, stance, grip, trigger control, sight alignment and point shooting, weapon malfunction drills and reloading drills, techniques for drawing from a concealed carry, engaging targets, tactical flashlight techniques, and tactics. Instruction also includes techniques for shooting from and using cover and concealment during a deadly force encounter, as well as moving and shooting techniques, range rules, safe handling rules and gun cleaning tips.

Equipment that the student is required to provide: Good quality handgun in 380ACP, 38/357, 9MM, 40 S&W and 45ACP caliber, holster, one extra magazine or two speed loaders/ speed strips and flashlight.

Materials and equipment provided by the department during training: bullet resistant vest, hearing protection, eye protection, ammunition, targets and student handouts.
If you have any questions please call xxxxx at xxxxxxx ext. 1251 or email him at xxxxx@xxxx.xxx
-Mike

NRA Life Member

"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom? Congress shall have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American ... The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the People."
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Re: PD run training.

Post by sodbuster95 »

Sounds like it's on the relatively basic end of the training scale and may not get into the training you're looking for. You may want to contact them and find out if it's going to touch on the topics you're interested in. As to the price - $150 seems a bit steep to me, but that may be explained by the fact that it includes ammo. Just my thoughts...
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Re: PD run training.

Post by BobK »

I could go to 10 weeks of IDPA for $150.

If you do not participate in IDPA or USPSA, I suggest starting there. It isn't "instruction", per se, but you get to see what works for other people, the chance to imitate, and a lot of practice. You will shoot while moving at every match.

If you already participate in one of those, then additional training is as a formal course is also worth it.
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Re: PD run training.

Post by pirateguy191 »

It's PD run training? At least they are going over the laws. :wink:
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Re: PD run training.

Post by A_F »

As long as it's not NYPD training it may not be too bad.

Sounds like a very pro 2a department, willing to train citizens in how to use personal defense weapons.
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Re: PD run training.

Post by TSiWRX »

To me, it doesn't mean anything at all that they're using the PD's range, nor that their instructors hold the Ohio Peace Officer Training Commission Certified Firearms Instructor and NRA Certified Pistol Instructor certifications.

I've had many instructors who hold both certs., and a range is just a range.

4 hours for $150 is pretty steep...unless the instructor/school is a "known name" and you're paying so that you can potentially use the experience as a recognized prerequisite when/if you should pursue further training, that's definitely on the high end of the scale.

My biggest concern, though, is that the proposed syllabus is *A LOT* of information to be taken care of over the course of just 4 hours on a live range. That's the kind of coursework I'd expect to see spread over at least two full 7.5 to 8-hour days. Add to that the fact that it's being billed as a course for the novice shooter?
The NEW SHOOTER TRAINING COURSE will cover such topics as: Marksmanship: weapon presentation, stance, grip, trigger control, sight alignment and point shooting, weapon malfunction drills and reloading drills, techniques for drawing from a concealed carry, engaging targets, tactical flashlight techniques, and tactics. Instruction also includes techniques for shooting from and using cover and concealment during a deadly force encounter, as well as moving and shooting techniques, range rules, safe handling rules and gun cleaning tips.
I mean, that's *A LOT* of stuff, particularly when we're talking about newer shooters..... :shock:

Breaking it down:
...range rules, safe handling rules....
- that should take about 15 minutes to a half-hour, particularly for newer shooters who may never have had hot-range experience and especially as dynamic movement and low-light (an assumption based on flashlight requirement) is a part of the syllabus
...marksmanship: weapon presentation, stance, grip, trigger control, sight alignment....
...weapon malfunction drills....
...reloading drills....
- this is usually the 3.5 to 4-hour AM portion of most single-day novice-to-beginner courses, right there
...techniques for shooting from and using cover and concealment during a deadly force encounter....
...moving and shooting technique....
...engaging targets....
- I'm going to take that as meaning "engaging multiple targets" - along with the other two above as well as more integrated stoppage reduction drills, this is usually a good portion of the afternoon of most single-day classes of this skill level
...point shooting....
...techniques for drawing from a concealed carry....
- this is usually taught completely separately, and typically not to "newer shooters" ("Point Shooting" and other threat-focused techniques may well be the main topic covered in a dedicated beginner's-level class, however, to both cover "Point Shooting" as well as precise sighted fire in one 4-hour live-fire course for "newer shooters" is, I think, really asking for a lot); most instructors/schools will require students demonstrate proficiency in safety and techniques via an open strong-side holster setup before allowing students to move on to concealment work, and there's strong safety reasons for this
...tactical flashlight techniques...
- whoa! :shock:
...and tactics....
- :?: :? :!:
...and gun cleaning tips....
:!: :!: :?:

If I were looking to enroll, I'd either go in with lower expectations of either the quantity of material that can be covered or the quality of material that can be covered, and would more than likely contact the actual class instructors to try and see what they are basing the pace and content of the syllabus on (i.e. their past experience running similar classes).

I'm looking at this from the standpoint of an "intermediate" level student with about 300 hours' worth of paid professional pistol training (discounting the Ohio-CHL "training") since April of 2011. Damn, and even with all that work, I still don't shoot all that well (my fault, not the intructors' - IIRC, Bill Holcomb of Three Tango Firearms Academy has a State-level IDPA champion among his roster of students)! :oops:

That's *A LOT* of material to cover.
Allen - Shaker Heights, Ohio
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Re: PD run training.

Post by TSiWRX »

Forgot something earlier. :oops:

Let's put this into perspective -

Chris Cerino ran a few "Shooting Enhancement Clinics" last year. Their stated purpose:
Clinic #1 --> http://www.chriscerinotraininggroup.com ... nic_1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Clinic #2 --> http://www.chriscerinotraininggroup.com ... Event.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Four hour segments for each.

Notice how limited in scope the teaching happens to be.

Price? $125 to $150. That's from an instructor that has a nationally known name - someone that various police departments hire to train their own cadre.

----

Now look at some "local"-level outfits: instructors and schools that have an excellent reputation locally, but perhaps are not well known outside their region :arrow:

http://www.commencefire.com/course/basi ... nship.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
^ Commence Fire (CFA) runs a 6-hour course for beginners, at $100, which includes 4 hours of classroom time plus 2 hours live-fire. Look at what the syllabus lays out as compared to the four-hour class from the HPD, fyrfytr310.

From there, CFA has a progression:

http://www.commencefire.com/course/shoo ... ctors.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - 2-hour "mini" live-fire sessions, $50, with no holster work

to

http://www.commencefire.com/schedule/schedule.htm#pht" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - a 3-hour, $25, dry-fire-only holster-work class

and then

http://www.commencefire.com/course/adva ... ndgun.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - a 7 to 8-hr. full-day live-fire/hot-range class at $125 that itself has two separate tiers to address advancing students safely for more difficult techniques (including shooting from concealment gear and clothing) and increasing difficulty in marksmanship demands

and also a more advanced "Shoot with the Instructors" 2-hour "mini" live-fire seminar where students shoot from concealment gear and clothing, again at only $50.

and a specialty "Low Level Light" class (http://www.commencefire.com/schedule/schedule.htm#LLL" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) for $75, that has a 4-hour classroom component followed by 2 hours of live-fire.

Similarly, look at Three Tango Firearms Academy and what they offer - a two-tier system:
http://www.threetango.com/courses/defen ... tol_1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.threetango.com/courses/defen ... tol_2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

that consists of 7-hour classes each day, at $125 each.

Look, in each case, at the course description/syllabus. Note how much is being taught.

fyrfytr310, I'm not posting to discourage you from attending. Please do not misunderstand. :)

My intent is to give you a framework from which to view the advertised training opportunity.

As I mentioned above, in your shoes, I'd either go in with lower expectations of either the quantity of material that can be covered or the quality of material that can be covered - or, more likely, contact the actual class instructors to try and see what they are basing the pace and content of the syllabus on (i.e. their past experience running similar classes), as well as to verify class content.

To be honest, if my local PD put on something like this, even if it costs a bit more than what I'd like to pay, I'd more than likely go. But then again, I'd also want to know exactly what I'm stepping into - if for safety's sake only.

But just as honestly, I'd be really hesitant to go if they're really planning to push low-light shooting or more risky manipulations skills (such as support/reaction-hand-only techniques) to beginner level shooters.
Allen - Shaker Heights, Ohio
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Re: PD run training.

Post by Flhrci »

Seems like they might be providing a nice service for the community. But I agree with others. It might be too much for the time allotted. I did find a promotional video for their CCW course though. Looks like they have people wear bullet-proof vests during shooting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjuZUdE9qwA

David
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Re: PD run training.

Post by TSiWRX »

Flhrci wrote:Seems like they might be providing a nice service for the community. But I agree with others. It might be too much for the time allotted. I did find a promotional video for their CCW course though. Looks like they have people wear bullet-proof vests during shooting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjuZUdE9qwA

David
That looks pretty darned nice!

It's definitely interesting to see that they're armored up. I wonder if that's a range rule that they must follow due to insurance/liability. I also wonder how that will impact the draw-from concealment portion of the curriculum....

As I'd written previous, if my local PD put on something like this, even if it costs a bit more than what I'd like to pay, I'd more than likely go. It's good to simply know that the PD is pro-2A.

But again, I'd also want to know exactly what I'm stepping into - if for safety's sake only.
Allen - Shaker Heights, Ohio
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fyrfytr310
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Re: PD run training.

Post by fyrfytr310 »

TSiWRX, when you get a minute, could you break all this down for me? :lol:

Thank you for all the comparison. I agree, after reading this and my own research that this is a steep price. I think I will take my monies elsewhere but, as another said, at least the department seems pro 2A.
-Mike

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"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom? Congress shall have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American ... The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the People."
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Re: PD run training.

Post by TSiWRX »

fyrfytr310 wrote:TSiWRX, when you get a minute, could you break all this down for me? :lol:
CliffsNotes not included at advertised price. :P :lol: You're gonna have to pay me extra for that, buddy! :lol:
Thank you for all the comparison. I agree, after reading this and my own research that this is a steep price. I think I will take my monies elsewhere but, as another said, at least the department seems pro 2A.
That's what I thought about it, too, and why I wrote that if my local PD put on something like this - even if it costs a bit more than what I'd like to pa - I'd more than likely go. It's good to simply know that the local constables are pro-2A. :)
Allen - Shaker Heights, Ohio
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