CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

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JustaShooter
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CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by JustaShooter »

I was going to post this in the "In The News" section in the [url=http://www.ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=70098]]NewsNet5 story on concealed carry/url] thread, but it evolved into a post that would have hijacked the thread so I've decided to put it here instead. What prompted it was a short exchange between two members about Ohio's training requirements, specifically this quote:
whoownsyou wrote: I have yet to meet anybody who has a CHL or shown interest in acquiring one that wasn't already either versed in basic firearms competency or immediately surrounded themselves with such individuals, increasing their own knowledge well beyond the scope of the required courses.
I suspect that things have changed enough in recent months that the typical CHL seeker has much less experience than ever before. I do agree that the classroom portion is arbitrarily long, but many of today's CHL seekers need more than the required 2 hours of range training. In fact, I've talked with a lot of instructors in the past few months after deciding to get my CHL, and in many classes in my area roughly 50% are teachers these days. At least half of them have at most fired a handgun once under someone's direct supervision (husband or SO usually) or have never fired a handgun before ever. Many of the others in the classes bought their handgun specifically for the class in the weeks preceding and have put at most a box of ammo through it, and for many of them it is also their first experience with a firearm. And in talking with the instructors they all agreed that most of their students are not inclined to get any more training than the class provided.

After thinking about my own recent training class, I had to wonder: how many of you actually got 2 hours of range training as a part of your CHL class - split in some reasonable way between actual shooting and instruction or advice about the fundamentals (grip, stance, etc.)? I don't mean 1-on-1 constant supervised training in the form of shooting drills, etc., but enough supervision to make the training worthwhile? Those of you who teach, how many actually give each student 2 hours of range training?

I ask because it wasn't that way in my class, nor has it been for anyone else I know who has gotten their CHL in the past couple of years. For me, it consisted of 2 instructors for a class of 30. We had 2 hours of the 12 set aside for range training, but it was split into two sessions of 15 people each session so tops 1 hour for each student. No actual instruction happened unless you were obviously fumbling around (in my session, the guy who got cut by the slide on his semi-auto and the lady that literally missed the silhouette entirely with the first 20+ rounds at 15 feet got all of the instructors' attention). And if you "qualified" in your first 50 rounds (I still don't know what that really meant, the instructor looked at our targets and all but two people were told they qualified but there were several that looked pretty questionable to me!), you were done in less than half that time so *maybe* 30 minutes. If you wanted, you could continue to shoot for the remaining 30 minutes of the slot (which I did) but even then, max was less than an hour, and total of 100 rounds.

For me, it wasn't really a problem - I put enough lead downrange each year to keep me proficient with all of my firearms but for many in my class what we received was woefully inadequate, certainly it was inadequate from the standpoint of satisfying the requirements of the law. And this wasn't an el cheapo no-name instructor/class, this was a supposedly well-regarded instructor recommended by at least two ranges and two LGS in my area.

What about you? Tell me your experience as a student or trainer. If you do not want your name attached to the post, PM me and I'll post it as an anonymous submission in the thread.

Mods, if this belongs somewhere else due to the potential sensitivity of the topic, feel free to move or even remove it if warranted (though I wouldn't mind a PM if you do).

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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by JediSkipdogg »

Well, the ORC mandates 2 of the 12 hours be range training. Any instructor doing less than 2 hours is improperly teaching the class and the student's certificate/license should legally be invalid.

I personlly do about 3 hours of range time. Nothing in the ORC says more of the 12 hours can't be range, it only mandates at least 2 hours of range. I teach some of the other 10 hours on the range as I find it beneficial too.

I've had a large mixture of students in my classes. Everything from people that shoot more often and better than me to the ones that have never shot. Personally, I think there should be the ability of an advanced class and a beginner and people can take either one and end up with a certificate for a license. Then it's up to the instructor if a person taking the advanced class should be forced back into the beginner class.
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by Jake »

Personally, I think there should be the ability of an advanced class and a beginner and people can take either one and end up with a certificate for a license. Then it's up to the instructor if a person taking the advanced class should be forced back into the beginner class.
Complicates matters, IMO.

Keep it simple.
Cover the basics (as dictated by law) and then some if you wish.
Encourage further training.
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by DontTreadOnMe »

The ORC doesn't require that each student have 2 hrs of live-fire:
(b) At least two hours of training that consists of range time and live-fire training.
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by JustaShooter »

DontTreadOnMe wrote:The ORC doesn't require that each student have 2 hrs of live-fire:
(b) At least two hours of training that consists of range time and live-fire training.
Understood, which is why I worded my post as I did.
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by JediSkipdogg »

DontTreadOnMe wrote:The ORC doesn't require that each student have 2 hrs of live-fire:
(b) At least two hours of training that consists of range time and live-fire training.
Not sure what you are fully saying. No, you don't have to stand there shooting for 2 hours. But you have to be at the range for two hours. I know in my class they split the range with law. So half the class was 2 hours at the range, while the other half was 2 hours back in the classroom doing law. Then they swapped us. If one split that and did 1 hour at the range and 1 hour of law and then swapped groups that would be illegal.

When I teach one doesn't get 2 hours of shooting, generally about 1/3 of that, so 40 minutes. I generally happen to have around 9 people and put them in groups of 3 on the line at a time. We just keep rotating the groups of 3 for about 90 minutes. Then any that have trouble get extra time on the line or if everyone is doing great, the fun toys come out and we shoot something besides paper.
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by JustaShooter »

JediSkipdogg wrote:When I teach one doesn't get 2 hours of shooting, generally about 1/3 of that, so 40 minutes. I generally happen to have around 9 people and put them in groups of 3 on the line at a time. We just keep rotating the groups of 3 for about 90 minutes. Then any that have trouble get extra time on the line or if everyone is doing great, the fun toys come out and we shoot something besides paper.
What do the other 6 do while 3 are shooting - observe, or are they receiving some other training?

Does observing others shoot qualify as range time for the purposes of satisfying the requirements for the CHL training under the ORC?
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by JediSkipdogg »

JustaShooter wrote:
JediSkipdogg wrote:When I teach one doesn't get 2 hours of shooting, generally about 1/3 of that, so 40 minutes. I generally happen to have around 9 people and put them in groups of 3 on the line at a time. We just keep rotating the groups of 3 for about 90 minutes. Then any that have trouble get extra time on the line or if everyone is doing great, the fun toys come out and we shoot something besides paper.
What do the other 6 do while 3 are shooting - observe, or are they receiving some other training?

Does observing others shoot qualify as range time for the purposes of satisfying the requirements for the CHL training under the ORC?
(b) At least two hours of training that consists of range time and live-fire training.

You're at the range observing us work with other shooters and reloading magazines or reloading a cylinder. I would say that qualifies. And yes, reloading a magazine is taught quite often. We also will on occasion do dry fire practive with people off the side of the shooting line.

I had one couple at one of my classes I made take a private one hour lesson with em to obtain their certificate. They needed to use the restroom and amazingly dissappeared for about 45 minutes. So I told them they needed to meet me at a range to make up an hour and they had to pay extra if they wanted their certificate. They complied and listened then.
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by DontTreadOnMe »

JediSkipdogg wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:The ORC doesn't require that each student have 2 hrs of live-fire:
(b) At least two hours of training that consists of range time and live-fire training.
Not sure what you are fully saying. No, you don't have to stand there shooting for 2 hours.
I read the OP as having an issue with classes where students spend less than 2 hours actually firing, suggesting that such classes don't meet ORC requirements.
If you wanted, you could continue to shoot for the remaining 30 minutes of the slot (which I did) but even then, max was less than an hour, and total of 100 rounds.... for many in my class what we received was woefully inadequate, certainly it was inadequate from the standpoint of satisfying the requirements of the law.
Perhaps I misread him. Either way, I was pointing out that the 2 hour requirement isn't 2 hrs of shooting.
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by Tweed Ring »

To me, part of the range training, even for people who are not immediately at the shooting ports, is the safety direction, advice, correction, etc. that the other participants see and hear.
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

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My class had about four hours of range time and burned about 120-140 rounds each. My horses got loose the second day so the instructor allowed me to drive home and chase them and then come back, didn't miss much and jumped right back in. I still had plenty of range time and instruction time inside.
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by Mrs. Daspirate »

I did spend two hours on a range, doing something other than standing around. I didn't spend two hours practicing useful things or even necessarily learning. The instructor realized about five minutes in that I knew "enough" for the purposes of the basic course, and after some tips and asking me to try a few different things, he left Joe (who was auditing as a refresher and keeping me company) and I alone to essentially amuse ourselves. I think we ended up playing HORSE for a few rounds while they helped another lady and her husband nearby, who were having trouble hitting the paper plate at all.
We were supervised and we were on-range for the two hours, they made sure we satisfied the requirements and then spent their valuable time on those who needed it more than I did - which I had no problem with. I paid for enough training to satisfy my license requirements, and I got that with no problems. I have not taken any advanced courses and don't plan to, but I don't see the need to require any more than they do - and I rather like that they leave it as open-ended as it seems to be. It leaves instructors free to divvy up their time and training tips the way they feel they should when faced with a class of a variety of skill levels.
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by Sevens »

I've been an active, hobbyist handgunner and handloader for 25 years, so when I went to seek Ohio CHL "training" in 2008, I was looking for the lowest common denominator. What I needed was low cost and one-day "get it all done in one session" kinda class.

I found exactly what I needed and wanted. And what I ended up with was a MILL. It was a huge class size for low-bucks (at the time) and I learned next to nothing about guns or carrying or the laws surrounding such, but what I did find out quickly that -MANY- folks in these classes so very much need help and extra training.

I wanted to jump from "student" to "assistant instructor" just a half hour in to the class because there were enough people in attendance that barely knew which end had the projectile exiting from it. I didn't want to step on the toes of any instructor, however. I did my best to keep quiet, stay out of the way and not take anyone's time which was much better used on another student.

In the end, I got exactly what I wanted and needed, but I still cringe when I recall the skill level of folks who left that class WOEFULLY unprepared for legally carrying a concealed handgun. And that was in 2008. Were I betting, I'd say there are MANY more neophytes getting CHL's now than 4-5 years ago. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing (in fact, this is a very VERY good thing), but there are negative facets to it also.

These days, I still worry about folks that get a CHL but aren't doing their level best to prepare themselves for it. I'd be well-suited for the role of an instructor but I simply don't have the time and resources to go that route. Instead, I'm "the gun guy" to interested folks who know me that wish to learn more about handguns, get their first handgun, and learn more about the hobby/lifestyle/culture. For now, that will suffice.

Even still, there's a part inside me that wishes I could advertise *FREE* advice and assistance to folks who are overwhelmed and have no idea how or where to start. I am certain I could provide a service that almost anyone in that position would benefit greatly from. And I worry about folks who have no idea about the nuances of the law with regard to carrying and transporting firearms and their role in personal defense.

If I were independently wealthy, I'd go that route. I'm not, and I'm also not at all interested in the industry and opportunity side of instructing in this new world where a properly slapped "tactical" makes it something that people want to buy. To be clear, I'm not saying it's wrong to make a career and profit from training, I'm not saying anything of the sort in any way. What I am saying is that I have NO INTEREST in profiting from training people who desperately need it or would be incredibly well served by it.
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by TSiWRX »

JustaShooter wrote: After thinking about my own recent training class, I had to wonder: how many of you actually got 2 hours of range training as a part of your CHL class - split in some reasonable way between actual shooting and instruction or advice about the fundamentals (grip, stance, etc.)? I don't mean 1-on-1 constant supervised training in the form of shooting drills, etc., but enough supervision to make the training worthwhile? Those of you who teach, how many actually give each student 2 hours of range training?
When I went through my Ohio-CHL course, I got 10 minutes on the line. The instructor assessed my safety in terms of the most basic handling as well as the most basic of shooting proficiency, and said that I could pack up and go pick up my certificate.

On another note, I'm really trying to hold my tongue (fingers? :oops: ) to not turn this into another "mandatory training" discussion thread. :P :lol:
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by Face »




On another note, I'm really trying to hold my tongue (fingers? :oops: ) to not turn this into another "mandatory training" discussion thread. :P :lol
Don't we get this thread every 6 weeks or so?
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