Handicapped Training

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Buckshot
Posts: 3504
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:52 pm
Location: Lima, Ohio

Handicapped Training

Post by Buckshot »

I have a question for all of you.

How many had a handicapped person in their class?

How many of you have heard of a training group that makes training available to the handicapped?

I am encountering this question because, as the result of an accident at my gun club (no firearms involved, volunteering my time to help put in posts for electric distribution pannels) I broke both of the bones in my lower right leg.

I have spent 6 weeks in a wheelchair (after I got out of the hospital) and expect to spend another 6 weeks in the chair while the break finishes healing.

This makes me look at self-defense and CCW from a completely different angle.

Thanks,

Buckshot
Safety Guy
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Location: Columbus, OH

Post by Safety Guy »

I don't know of any specific courses addressing this issue, but a good trainer should be able to work with you on some of the advantages and disadvantages of "wheelchair carry."

A few ideas:

It may be tempting to attach your piece or holster to the chair itself, but I would think twice about this. If a scrote managed to get close to you and tip you out of your chair, you may fall out of range of your gun and effectively be disarmed.

Consider a backup weapon such as a folding or fixed blade knife, some type of impact weapon (flashlights are always appropriate and totally legal), or even another gun.

If you learned to draw to the "#2" or pectoral index, you may have to modify this technique due to your legs being in the way in that sitting position.

Obtain a "blue" or "red" gun and practice your counter-grappling and weapon retention skills. You may have to develop this stuff yourself with the help of a grappler/police trainer.

As a general rule, the "disparity of force" issues inherent in your situation should give you some advantages, but don't get too smug about them. :)

Predators may now see you more as "prey" than before, despite anything else you do. Some of them ain't too smart. You reached under that cover to scratch an itch...

Oh yeah, practice yelling "April Fool's M-F!!" as you put the rounds into the target... :twisted:

Karl

PS: legal disclaimer: I was kidding on that last sentence. 8)
I WANT VERMONT! (OR "ALASKA")
That's FIRST AMENDMENT CRUSADER PIGLET!
Buckshot
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Location: Lima, Ohio

Post by Buckshot »

I am an NRA Certified trainer.

I was using my current experience to wonder what might need to be made avilable for handicapped students.

Always before I figured "if they show up, I will deal with it." Now I am wondering if someone or several someones need to go out and get that segment of the market and of those who desire CCWs.

Buckshot
Mad Duck
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Post by Mad Duck »

I have trained several.
If need be I'll even go to their home for the classroom part since my classroom is not wheel chair friendly.
When we build the new one it will be, but in the meantime we will do whatever it takes to get them trained.
I gave the class to a couple, the husband was in a wheelchair, he told me 3 other trainers had turned him down.
The best thing is ask when a student calls if they have any special needs, that way you have no surprises. Let them know you are willing to make an extra effort to get them trained.
BEAR!
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Post by BEAR! »

I'm handicapped, and I took my training with the Duck. I asked when I contacted him if my handicap was a problem. My wife and I both took the training and we have nothing but good things to say about him. Polite, personable, and very professional.
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"Life is tough, its even tougher when you're stupid"- John Wayne

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Scruit
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Post by Scruit »

ISTR the NASR classroom has a wheelchair ramp. They may need to rearrange the tables to give you access, and the toilet was just a regular width residential door so you'd have to be sure your chair fits through there...
Safety Guy
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Location: Columbus, OH

Post by Safety Guy »

I've been thinking a bit about "wheelchair carry." Now my total exposure to wheelchairs has been a few minutes one night with a regular (non-motorized version) one. When I get the chance, I'll get some more "wheel time" in. :)

First, let me ASSume that the motorized wheelchairs will stop and stay when you "come off the gas." :) In other words, they'll stop on level ground or even on an incline as long as the incline isn't too steep.

If so, the motorized chairs may be "better" from the standpoint of a "gun platform." If you use two hands to access and shoot your piece, then simply drawing will stop the chair and you will shoot from a standstill.

On the other hand, in a regular chair, if you are on an incline and use both hands to draw and fire, the chair will probably keep rolling. (On level ground this is probably not too much of a problem.)

If you use one hand to stop one wheel, it will swivel a bit as you draw and fire one-handed. If you use both hands to stabilize the chair, or to move as fast as you can to get away, you can't draw.

So it seems to me that one of the first things to figure out is how to handle the act of presentation from the wheelchair and orienting to the target.

On the training range, there might be the temptation to simply shoot from a stopped chair (of either type) on a level floor, with proper orientation to the target.

However, "life ain't a square range."

This is fine for "basic beginner's type training." However, defensive competence in the context of an actual criminal assault will probably not involve a perfectly still, properly oriented chair. Criminals often attack from behind, work with other criminals, and/or use ruses to gain close access to the prey.

If you are attacked by a clumsy criminal who gives away his game at 5 to 7 meters in front of your stopped, stabile gun platform (your wheelchair), you will be very lucky and the problem will be relatively simple to solve. If this is all you train for, if anything gets more difficult, you will not be as able to respond effectively since all your training has been "easy."

So let us consider the "worst to middlin' type scenarios."

You are going up your home's handicap ramp after dark when someone runs up behind you. Handrails on both sides limit your movement.

You are leaving your specially equipped van or other vehicle and setting up your wheelchair when you are assaulted.

You are negotiating a public restroom when someone busts in through the stall door and attacks.

You are on a sloped parking lot when a suspicious stranger approaches you from the front. You address his potential threat while his buddy outflanks you, unseen.

Obviously, we need to be on the lookout for the "warning signs" of criminal predation. However, we may not always see or heed those signs...or not see them in time.

For a standard wheelchair, I see these options. Be aware I may be missing other options:

1. Draw with both hands. Chair will roll to a stop or on an incline, will keep rolling. It could roll faster or roll into something, possibly getting stuck or facing in an inconvenient direction.

Control over gun but not the chair.

2. Draw with one hand while stabilizing chair with the other. On level ground, this may work well. On an incline, chair may swivel a certain way (which may be adequately addressed in training?).

Partial control over both gun and chair.

3. Stop chair and then draw. This will obviously slow down your armed response, but will create stability for accurate fire. (How long does it take to apply the wheel brakes? I don't know. There may be different types of chairs, etc. There may yet be "emergency techniques" developed by the handicapped or self-defense trainers of which I am unaware.)

Maximum control of gun and chair but with slower response time.


I'm throwing this out now to all of you. :) Have you thought in these terms? Do they make sense? Other ideas? Etc.

Thanks,

Karl

PS: Please note that this is only addressing the basics of drawing the gun and does not cover other hazards like gun grabs, etc.
I WANT VERMONT! (OR "ALASKA")
That's FIRST AMENDMENT CRUSADER PIGLET!
Safety Guy
Posts: 255
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:37 am
Location: Columbus, OH

Post by Safety Guy »

I repeated my last post at totalprotectioninteractive.com (TPI) and got a slew of responses. I'll copy a few quotes here. For those who may be interested, the link follows. You'll have to register to see it:

http://www.totalprotectioninteractive.c ... php?t=1876


J Marwood wrote:
One thing which may be worth considering is the type of wheelchair being used. AFAIK motorised chairs require the right hand be used for movement. That may mean that the gun will be able to used in the off-hand. It may also be possible to move and maintain the grip on the weapon with the strong hand (assuming the user is right handed).

I think your suppositions are likely correct though Karl, timely weapon access will be key. In your examples the user is likely to be knocked over and so it will important to understand and train how to regain the chair or what mobility is possible without it. I guess learning to fall will be important as well.
Slackbladder wrote:
If I was going to beat on a wheelchair bound guy, my first priority would be to spill him onto the floor and kick him to pieces.
Therefore, I'm not overly keen on off-the-body-carry. The weapon should be accessible and within arms reach at alll times. If it ever gets beyond arms reach, the chances are that it will not return to your grasp. The A-IWB [appendix inside waistband] position may well be the way to go. The gun is easily defended by going foetal and the drawstoke is strong. I'd be curious to see if the design of the chair hinders the #2 position in the four-count drawstroke.
and also...
I'm not so concerned with creating a stable platform by locking the wheels before shooting. Given that collision is likely, you may avoid being tipped over by allowing that kinetic energy to disperse via rotation of the wheels rather than rotation of the chair itself. That in mind, I wouldn't be so keen on getting nudged into traffic, so brakes are likely a "it depends" issue. Get the guy to do some shooting while rolling at an outdoor range and see if the shooting takes a big dive.
J Marwood also wrote:
One problem that we will hit in trying it is that none of us are wheelchair uses and we won't have the skills to manouvre the chair. Once we have drawn some conclusions from our own experimentation we should really look to getting some wheelchair users involved.
Rawhide Clyde wrote:
I spent the better part of 6 months in a wheelchair due to an accident. Everything worked well from the waist up but the legs got pretty banged up. While I never actually shot a firearm from it I did practice defensive skills, which included AirSoft/AirGun work.
and also...
As mentioned earlier if on anything other than level ground I would have to either get the chair stopped or deal with a rolling chair. On relatively gentle straight and smooth inclines I could draw and fire without stopping the chair. If the circumstances were otherwise I would hit the brakes or grab the wheels. Course if you didn’t get both wheels locked down you would pivot around the stopped wheel. If the momentum was not to great, no problem with the pivoting as it would come around slowly and bleed off what speed was left. If you locked a wheel at a good clip you would whip around very quickly and maybe even take a tumble. Terrain/environment makes a huge difference in how the chair reacts/handles (i.e. polished concrete, asphalt, rough sidewalk with acorns and pebbles, thick carpet etc..)
Well, that's all for now. Just trying to keep the discussion going.

So far I'd say that "weapons access" should be primary. Retention of the weapon and planning for a "wheelchair FUT" (FUT = "fouled up tangle") in case of collision or physical assault should be taken into consideration.

I'm planning on some "wheelchair access" sometime this weekend and I'll play with it.

Anyone else on wheelchair handgun defense?

Karl
I WANT VERMONT! (OR "ALASKA")
That's FIRST AMENDMENT CRUSADER PIGLET!
Brian D.
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Location: SW Ohio

Post by Brian D. »

Karl, you're doing some great work here, I don't want to interrupt it. Never had to use a wheelchair--so far at least--but have had to spend some time on crutches. Don't want to drift thread off-topic, suffice to say that while hobbling around, my training regimen changed somewhat. Important thing is, the training didn't stop because of those wooden contraptions.

Being confined to a wheelchair shouldn't stop anybody from being capable of defending themselves, either. Press on with this excellent topic, Safety Guy!
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
Safety Guy
Posts: 255
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:37 am
Location: Columbus, OH

Post by Safety Guy »

Thanks Brian!

After talking with a guy from Crimson Trace at the Snubby Summit, plus a thread on consideration (or reconsideration) of "lasers" at TPI, I'm wondering if a well designed laser device on a handgun might not be a more worthwhile investment for a wheelchair user? (Especially assuming other potential handicaps and the possibility of getting dumped on the ground at the outset of hostilities.)

Mind you I'm usually a bit leary of "hi-tech solutions" to what is more likely a "special training issue."

Karl
I WANT VERMONT! (OR "ALASKA")
That's FIRST AMENDMENT CRUSADER PIGLET!
TunnelRat
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Post by TunnelRat »

Safety Guy wrote:You are negotiating a public restroom when someone busts in through the stall door and attacks.
Of course, this one applies to everybody. Usually, if a guy is that desparate for toilet paper, I'd be willing to give him some...
TunnelRat

"Applying the standard that is well established in our case law, we hold that the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States." ~ McDonald v. Chicago

When your only tools are a hammer and sickle, every problem starts to look like too much freedom.
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