.45 ACP Doublestack HD Gun Debate

[Morne]

All,

Awhile back I traded off my Springfield XD Tactical in .45 ACP. That was the last of my double-stack .45 ACPs. At one time I had several Para-Ordnance pistols and the XD in that flavor. Today, all of my .45 ACPs are either revolvers or single-stacks.

So...I kind of want a double-stack .45 ACP semi-auto again for a home-defense pistol. Since that's the role, some things matter more than others. For instance, I don't care about it being lightweight or easy to conceal. In fact, I think a longer barrel would be better. I desire at least 13+1 rounds of ammunition onboard. I do, however, absolutely demand night sights on the gun. A rail for mounting a light is another must. I want no thumb safety that I could forget under stress. A reasonably good trigger is critical because I do NOT want to swap in an aftermarket trigger.

The contenders:
Sig P320 Fullsize w/ 4.7" barrel
S&W M&P M2.0 w/4.6" barrel
SA XDM w/ 5.25" barrel
SA XD Mod2 Tactical w/ 5" barrel

NONE of these are the perfect gun as they come from the factory. The Sig and S&W only come with 10 rounds magazines. The Springfield Armory guns come with fiber optic sights that are wonderful in daylight but suck at night. The S&W sights are just dot sights.

Now all of these shortcomings can be fixed. You can buy new Tritium night sights for the S&W or XD pistols. You can buy (factory) extended magazines for the S&W; the Sig would need either P227 magazines or aftermarket extended magazines like from Springer Precision to get the round count I want.

Now money isn't everything but it is a consideration. So what do these guns really cost, including their needed tweaks? Let's break it down:
Sig P320 ($500) + Magazine Extension ($35 each) = $535
S&W M&P2.0 ($440) + Trijicon night sights ($149 + $20 installation) + 14-round magazines ($38 each) = $647
SA XDM ($550) + Trijicon Night Sights ($126 + $20 installation) = $696
SA XD Mod2 ($553) + Trijicon Night Sights ($126 + $20 installation) = $699

Thoughts/opinions? No, I don't like Glocks. Deal with it.

[Mr. Glock]

Walther PPQ in 45 ACP - has a great trigger and not-too-big grip. I think they have a regular and long-slide (or similar).

I was considering buying one, but I dont like the slide release "bars" on each slide, as my high thumbs position holds them down sometimes. And the mag release molded in fence is a little high (easily fixed with a little work).

Frankly, Walther has been pretty impressive lately. The little 9 mm is a great gun too.

[curmudgeon3]

I have two .45acp Colt New Agents w/Big Dot nite sights on one, 7+1 in each, 16 total. (Best I can do.)lol

[Brian D.]

To save a little money, consider adding tritium up front only. After many years of low light shooting among my group, we concluded it was all the glow needed, assuming you have a decent index on the gun from the draw.

Years ago I didn't know this and set up several guns front and back, at considerable expense by the way. Now as they reach their half life, if front only is available, that's what I opt for.

[TSiWRX]

With the XD-platform, if you cannot perform necessary single-handed manipulations - with either your dominant hand or your support hand - it is my strong belief that you'll need to drop those guns from your selection process, right then and there.

[Tru-Heathen]

Were I in your place, the Sig P320 with the extended magazine base would be my choice.

But then I'm biased toward Sigs and the P320's in particular.

[Morne]

Were I in your place, the Sig P320 with the extended magazine base would be my choice.

But then I'm biased toward Sigs and the P320's in particular.

And while I agree, since I am really very fond of my P320C in 9x19mm, I am just appalled at the .45 variant of the gun.

After all, the big selling point on the 320 was the modularity. Yet the .45 doesn't interchange with the 9/40/357. And the ammo capacity just sucks out loud - 10/9/6 for mags in the full/compact/sub-compact. By Thor my single-stacks XDS carries 7 in the extended mag!

And while I like the trigger in the 320 I suspect I'd like the XDM trigger even better. Heck, even the Apex trigger kits (which I am NOT getting) for the 320 don't change the pull weight any. Now that I am getting to be a competent enough shot that I could potentially see the advantage of a "match trigger" I kind of want to play with one.

Now having the 320 come with SigLite night sights as OEM is yuge. That offsets a lot of cost that S&W and SA expect shooters to pony up for on the aftermarket. Seriously, for a defensive handgun why wouldn't you expect night sights???

[marca]

FNX-45. Big, 15 round mags, rail, bad butt.

[Tru-Heathen]

The lack of modularity between the P320 in 45acp & the other calibers is a sore point for many. I've a P220 for my 45 needs.

And Apex has a version 2.0 of their trigger that claims to drops the pull ~ 2 # .
GrayGuns has one that will drop it to 4.5 # . Both are "drop in" install.
Bruce Gray's trigger is twice the price of the Apex.

I no longer have my XDs45, but still have the XDs9. 10 rounds using the extended magazine.

[TSiWRX]

Seriously, for a defensive handgun why wouldn't you expect night sights???

Hotly debated in today's world - and I would actually say that a majority of today's top-tier trainers would say that it is not necessary. That, instead, what's truly absolutely necessary would be a good WML.

The window of usability of self-luminous tritium "night sights" is a narrow one. That said, during that window, it tremendously enhances usability. [ As an interesting aside, Claude Warner wrote about his experiences as Chief Instructor at Rogers Shooting School, and what he saw with "twilight" laser sight use versus tritium night sights. He posted a low-resolution (due to technological limitations) but very, very convincing demonstration of the whys of his thinking. ]

Even so, the absolute must is to positively identify the threat. And that, without sufficient light - however that light arrives - to resolve the target...it's just not going to happen.

[Morne]

FNX-45. Big, 15 round mags, rail, bad butt.

That gun is a DA/SA with a thumb safety/decocker. I'll pass.

[jeep45238]

IF capacity and target ID are your priorities, I'd honestly go away from .45 and snag your flavor of 9mm with a rail and a light, with a fiber optic front sight, black rear. The light will ID the target and provide a stupid amount of glow to your front sight, and if you're worried about tube breakage, take an honest assessment of the longest range in your home and if you can make a fist size group with black iron sights at that distance.

If your concern is similar ballistics/trajectories regardless the intermediate barriers, I'd suggest .45acp and a light, same sight option. Larger, heavier, slower bullets tend to have less deflection from their flight path going through a broader range of barriers.

I will say, having seen the inside of an apartment with .357mag, .44mag, 12 gauge bird, 20 gauge buck, 40 JHP and 9 JHP, that bullets do NOT do what you think they'll do in a complicated enviornment as often as you'd like them to (as in - soft tip jhp 44 mag getting split in two going through drywall, kind of crazy).

If ergos are your concern, you're going to sacrifice on the .45 double stack. It's a fat round that sits around 1.25" OAL - and the grip/mags will be much larger for similar capacity to 9mm/40, or reduced capacity for better ergos. No way around that.

Taking into account the minor bore diameter difference between .45 and 9mm (2.5ish mm), faster split times, reduced recoil and typically higher accuracy@faster splits, higher capacity, as low as 33 grain difference in bullet weight (heavy 9mm to light 45), similar terminal ballistics, and the fact you can load with whatever your preference is in ammunition (not mandated by agency) - I see no reason to grab a .45 for this role.

If you insist on .45 in this role though, I'd grab the platform that most closely resembles your existing primary choice of 9mm/40 semi auto to have the most consistency in operation.

I'd strongly look at a da/sa pistol with a light if you're a revolver shooter that has other people living in the same building for this role - a split moment more time for ID on the first shot for your brain to register what's happening can turn something from a tragedy to a lesson learned (read articles on people shooting family members due to rapid judgments/no target ID).

[Morne]

If you insist on .45 in this role though...

I do. Ergos aren't an issue. I wear either XL or 2XL gloves depending on the brand. Doublestack .45 ACPs are just fine for my hand.

I now generally dislike the DA/SA decocker guns. I want a consistent trigger pull. My revolvers have a consistent trigger pull, since under stress you're going to use DA only on them.

Now your point about a gun with a weapon light doing fine indoors with a fiber optic sight is intriguing. If I permit fiber optic then all of the prospective guns except the S&W have good sights from the factory. That lowers the SA XDM & Mod2 costs to near that of the Sig P320.

And yeah, I am shooting the daylights out of my P320 in 9x19mm. I also shoot the SA XDS in .45 ACP. So really either are fine.

[TSiWRX]

Since you now seem more receptive to other ironsight options, I would encourage you to try your current FO sights with a good handheld light - something in the range of 300 to 600 lumens (candelpower doesn't matter much, here, as you'll either get room-filling white-wall light or you'll get plenty of reflected light off of a hotter beam), before you go the way of tritium night-sights. If true "home" defense - inside the house - is your requirement, then this is something that you owe to yourself to check, before you buy.

In terms of durability, correct installation beats everything else. My training/range 4.5-inch XDm9 has been through a stupid amount of abuse in various training classes, and I'm still on my original FO insert with my Dawson. Tritium vials can - and will - break, too, and even with as few years as I have been in the hobby, I've seen equal frequency of breakage between the two.

And once more, if you're looking at the XD-platform guns, be sure you can manipulate the gun, single-handed.

[jeep45238]

If you insist on .45 in this role though...

I do. Ergos aren't an issue. I wear either XL or 2XL gloves depending on the brand. Doublestack .45 ACPs are just fine for my hand.

I now generally dislike the DA/SA decocker guns. I want a consistent trigger pull. My revolvers have a consistent trigger pull, since under stress you're going to use DA only on them.

Now your point about a gun with a weapon light doing fine indoors with a fiber optic sight is intriguing. If I permit fiber optic then all of the prospective guns except the S&W have good sights from the factory. That lowers the SA XDM & Mod2 costs to near that of the Sig P320.

And yeah, I am shooting the daylights out of my P320 in 9x19mm. I also shoot the SA XDS in .45 ACP. So really either are fine.

If you're shooting with the reset on a striker gun, then you aren't shooting with a consistent trigger press - you have a long take up and a short take up. Think of a da/sa as a long travel/short reset, and depending on the design can be not that dramatic of a diffference (or worse in others). But I'm starting to become more aware of how weird I am, so....yeah, whatever.

Fiber tubes get lit up from light coming from the FRONT mostly - they do collect from the sides of the tube, but just like water/electricity, light goes path of least resistance, and has porous materials that soak it up (this case, color - like black vs. white). A bright light will provide a huge amount of contrast for irons and light up the fiber tube, and wash out night sights - may as well have plain iron sights at that point in the game.

I still think for serious-use platforms, there should be the most consistency between your hands and the object, capacity be damned. You can always get extended mag bases/springs to make up for the capacity (just like my old 1911 and 10 round mags).