.45 ACP Doublestack HD Gun Debate

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Morne
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Re: .45 ACP Doublestack HD Gun Debate

Post by Morne »

I slightly disagree about the trigger pull being different. At the class I took over the weekend they taught to preload the trigger during the press-out and then actually press/break from the reset point once arms are locked. And yeah, after the shot you just come back to the reset point, in this case the same place you started from when your arms locked out.

...and yeah, you're weird... :P

I tried both my FO equipped XDS and my Sig P320C with night sights in a walk-in closet with a 250-lumen led flashlight. The FO worked, but was only bright against a fairly close reflecting wall/object. Meanwhile the night sights glowed just fine and were easy to see.
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Re: .45 ACP Doublestack HD Gun Debate

Post by jeep45238 »

Morne wrote:I slightly disagree about the trigger pull being different. At the class I took over the weekend they taught to preload the trigger during the press-out and then actually press/break from the reset point once arms are locked. And yeah, after the shot you just come back to the reset point, in this case the same place you started from when your arms locked out.

...and yeah, you're weird... :P

I tried both my FO equipped XDS and my Sig P320C with night sights in a walk-in closet with a 250-lumen led flashlight. The FO worked, but was only bright against a fairly close reflecting wall/object. Meanwhile the night sights glowed just fine and were easy to see.

You can be more aggressive on the press-out with a DA and have a nicer trigger after the fact - but again, I'm weird.

I'm okay with that - heck I hooked up a Mr. Bullet Feeder to a Lee single stage for pete's sake :wink:

Try this test with the light you plan on using, especially if weapon mounted, and do it at night if possible after you've taken 10-15 minutes for your eyes to adjust to the house without any other light sources. You may find a different reaction, easier/harder to find a different setup, or find that a brighter light has advantages if you have longer hallways, or is blinding if it's relatively cramped with turns. Paint color plays a big part of this too.
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Re: .45 ACP Doublestack HD Gun Debate

Post by Mr. Glock »

I think Night Sights may be a little over-rated for home defense. Not that they are bad, just have a limited field of usefulness. With a family in a house, I'm not going to fire until I identify the target. And I'll use a WML to do so. If
it is so dark that I need to use NS, then it is too dark to ID the target.

I have heard the arguments for shooting without lighting up the target. But I also think you can stage the gun closer to firing the more you suspect the target is a BG. And 800 lumens of WML can be momentarily dis-orienting.


And if It is light enough to know the target is a BG, then I dont think I'll need NS to hit BG in a house. Houses are pretty small.

And, BTW, the 45 ACP is great round for home defense. The 9mm crowd today sounds like 40 crowd 20 years ago, which sounded like the 357 wheelgun crowd of 20 years before that. Not that the 9 is bad, it is just not all that and a bag
of chips. <runs for cover>
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Re: .45 ACP Doublestack HD Gun Debate

Post by curmudgeon3 »

OMG !! Now you've done it.
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Morne
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Re: .45 ACP Doublestack HD Gun Debate

Post by Morne »

Mr. Glock wrote:...which sounded like the 357 wheelgun crowd of 20 years before that.
Doh! I'm going to try to not take that personally. :lol: 8)
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Re: .45 ACP Doublestack HD Gun Debate

Post by TSiWRX »

Morne wrote: ...with a 250-lumen led flashlight.... Meanwhile the night sights glowed just fine and were easy to see.
Which light?

The problem is that you can't just rate a light by its declared "lumens" output. Look at a 200-lumen Surefire KXC2 Scout head (previous generation Scout), versus their 200-lumen XC-1. Completely different output, for completely different end-use purposes.

Additionally, is your walk-in closet reflective (no pun intended) of the rest of your home? Are your hallways and rooms darkened by hung clothing or draperies/drapes? Or are your white/off-white hallways and room walls and ceilings a lot more reflective?

That you had a sufficiently darkened ambient setting which enabled you to visualize the faint glow of the Tritium inserts of your night-sights would suggest to me that there simply isn't enough light being thrown by your flashlight or, alternatively, that the setting of your testing itself reflects a specific construct which favors the use of the night sights (to wit, if you were in the closet with your threat, at that distance, do you even need your sights, at all? or a light?). If your WML/handheld flashlight is turned on and you're still seeing the glow of the weapon's night-sights.....were you shining the light into your clothes but focusing your eyes on the weapon's sights, with the weapon still in the dark. :?

Where Tritium night-sights come into their own is where the gun is in a totally dark area, while there is sufficient light otherwise to resolve the threat (or with a known true threat that has already been otherwise positively identified). This old blog entry by the late ToddG. demonstrates this advantage very well - https://pistol-training.com/archives/7668" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (the picture is no longer appearing on the page, but is still viewable full-screen http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/u ... sights.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

Your testing, while it showed you a specific scenario where the night sights do undeniably excel (similar to the one above), doesn't necessarily mean that the FO isn't viable - it simply showed that the specific conditions of the test put the FOs at a considerable disadvantage, which is similar to creating a specific testing condition in which the night sights become less usable or completely irrelevant.

There is no right or wrong as to whether to have any type of ironsights on your defensive handgun. Rather, it's about knowing and understanding the limitations and advantages of what you have. :) I think it is perfectly reasonable if you - or anyone else - wants to have Tritium night-sights on their weapons. But don't think that just because it is a defensive weapon, that it's a "must." :)

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Trigger technique?

So many good shooters use so many different techniques. :) Find one that works well for you, understand what happens as the BSA template changes - rock on.
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Re: .45 ACP Doublestack HD Gun Debate

Post by hkuspclem40 »

Did you take your TDI class yet and if so, does the criteria for this gun have anything to do with the training you received?
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Re: .45 ACP Doublestack HD Gun Debate

Post by Morne »

hkuspclem40 wrote:Did you take your TDI class yet and if so, does the criteria for this gun have anything to do with the training you received?
I did but I'm not asking for a 9mm in Glock or S&W M&P.
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Re: .45 ACP Doublestack HD Gun Debate

Post by hkuspclem40 »

Morne wrote:
hkuspclem40 wrote:Did you take your TDI class yet and if so, does the criteria for this gun have anything to do with the training you received?
I did but I'm not asking for a 9mm in Glock or S&W M&P.
Are those types of pistols "pushed" there or preferred by students taking the class/to use for the class? I'm not sure I understand. I was more curious if your choice is based on something you took away from your experience there.

I'd also be curious to hear about your trip if you have time to start another thread. Thanks
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Re: .45 ACP Doublestack HD Gun Debate

Post by Mr. Glock »

hkuspclem40 wrote:
Morne wrote:
hkuspclem40 wrote:Did you take your TDI class yet and if so, does the criteria for this gun have anything to do with the training you received?
I did but I'm not asking for a 9mm in Glock or S&W M&P.
Are those types of pistols "pushed" there or preferred by students taking the class/to use for the class? I'm not sure I understand. I was more curious if your choice is based on something you took away from your experience there.

I'd also be curious to hear about your trip if you have time to start another thread. Thanks
Those two guns do tend to be their general recommendation and have been for a number of years. But, you can bring other guns, it is not exclusive / limited to just having those guns.
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Re: .45 ACP Doublestack HD Gun Debate

Post by TSiWRX »

Full-size 9mm double-stacks are the *strong* preference of virtually *all* well-regarded "tactical" trainers, as of the last 5 years or so, not just TDI.
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Re: .45 ACP Doublestack HD Gun Debate

Post by hkuspclem40 »

Thanks for the clarification Mr. Glock and TSiWRX
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Re: .45 ACP Doublestack HD Gun Debate

Post by Mr. Glock »

TSiWRX wrote:Full-size 9mm double-stacks are the *strong* preference of virtually *all* well-regarded "tactical" trainers, as of the last 5 years or so, not just TDI.
Which brings up a related point. Assuming you can shoot 9 vs 40 vs 357 vs 45 decently well, I think the Cult of the 9 is over-rated. I have noticed that shooting 300-600 rounds a day in a class, when I'm tuned up, I shoot a 9 better than a 40/357/45 due to compounding recoil over time. But, I'd probably also shoot a 22 LR better too, after so many rounds in one day.

And, if I'm in a 300-600 round gun fight where that matters, the caliber of my sidearm is not of primary concern...something has gone really, really wrong.

Out of the holster, not at the range and not tuned-up, with ammo that can be easily carried on you, I'm just not sold that a 9 is going to be so much more accurate than a 40/357/45 for the first magazine (assuming you can shoot decently well with those calibers). And I'm not sold that I will most likely need 15 rounds (Glock 19) vs 13 rounds (Glock 23 or 32) in my first magazine. But I do believe a bigger bullet moving at the same speed (40 vs 9) or the same bullet moving at a much (300 fps) faster speed (357 vs 9) also does have some benefits, although it can be hard to quantify that in pistol ammo terminal effects in gel.

Two areas where the 9mm does shine, however, is wear on the gun and use in small guns. A lower-pressure, lower-recoil impulse cartridge is going wear the same gun less than a higher-pressure or higher-recoil impulse cartridge. Thus the 9 has gun reliability benefits in the same package gun. And, I have no desire to own a 40 or 357 or 45 that is the size of a Glock 43....recoil can be a huge factor in a very small gun.
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Re: .45 ACP Doublestack HD Gun Debate

Post by TSiWRX »

Mr. Glock wrote: Out of the holster, not at the range and not tuned-up, with ammo that can be easily carried on you, I'm just not sold that a 9 is going to be so much more accurate than a 40/357/45 for the first magazine (assuming you can shoot decently well with those calibers).
My feeling is the opposite, my friend. :)

I'm thinking that "cold body/cold mind," my ability to control recoil will likely be considerably better with the 9.
And I'm not sold that I will most likely need 15 rounds (Glock 19) vs 13 rounds (Glock 23 or 32) in my first magazine.
I definitely hope I will never need all 14 (or 23) rounds that's in my EDC, but given that "cold body/cold mind" for the first shot(s) and that I am going to be under stress in a manner which I have never as of yet been able to experience (thankfully, at that)....I'm gonna want as much ammo as I can, and I'm going to also wish for a magic unicorn to be loading additional mags for me, too!!!! :P :lol:
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Re: .45 ACP Doublestack HD Gun Debate

Post by jeep45238 »

I want a bajillion round mag. Until hen I'll tak my he most rounds of effective ammunition I can get.
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