No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

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DontTreadOnMe
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Post by DontTreadOnMe »

Six Shooter, everyone agrees it's not an NFA firearm. The ATF said as much and that's not in question. What IS in question is whether it's a shotgun under Ohio law.

The ATF said it's not a firearm under the NFA but it is a firearm under the GCA. They didn't explicitly say anything about it whether it is or is not a shotgun, but the implication is that it is not considered a shotgun under either of those laws. That doesn't mean it's not a shotgun under Ohio law. What it is, unquestionably, is a shotgun barrel connected to a shotgun receiver, connected to a pistol grip.

Texas appears to be in a similar situation as Ohio. Here's part of a summary from Texas Law Shield:
In the absence of language in the Texas Penal Code similar to “intended to be fired from the shoulder,” can having a pistol grip instead of a shoulder stock automatically create a firearm that is not a shotgun?

When left without a clear definition, the jury would end up looking at the firearm and deciding whether or not it met the commonly understood definition of a shotgun, which is usually a smooth bore firearm used for firing small shot at a short range.

If in the eyes of the jury the Mossberg 590 Shockwave looked like a shotgun, then due to the 14-inch barrel it would be a short-barrel firearm and possession would be a third-degree felony offense under Texas Penal Code Section 46.05(a)(1). Therefore, we definitely advise caution when it comes to purchasing and possessing this firearm in Texas!
The short answer here is that nobody knows for sure whether it's legal in Ohio. Just because you can legally buy it doesn't mean it's legal to own, because it's a complicated question and no Ohio authority has formally ruled on the question.
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Post by WY_Not »

Really stupid question. Why classify it as a "firearm"? If being built on a "virgin" receiver with a pistol grip, why not classify it as a pistol?
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Post by Six Shooter »

DontTreadOnMe wrote:Six Shooter, everyone agrees it's not an NFA firearm. The ATF said as much and that's not in question.
End of story.
WY_Not wrote:Why classify it as a "firearm"? If being built on a "virgin" receiver with a pistol grip, why not classify it as a pistol?
If the barrel had rifling, it would be classified as a handgun.
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Post by DontTreadOnMe »

WY_Not wrote:Really stupid question. Why classify it as a "firearm"? If being built on a "virgin" receiver with a pistol grip, why not classify it as a pistol?
First, all pistols, shotguns and rifles (excluding airguns) are firearms (under the GCA). Saying it's a firearm doesn't mean it's not a pistol, or a shotgun.

It's not classified as a pistol because it doesn't meet the definition of pistol in the law. This isn't about the ATF's opinion, it's about the letter of the law which may not always be logical but it's how the law is written.
Last edited by DontTreadOnMe on Thu May 25, 2017 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DontTreadOnMe
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Post by DontTreadOnMe »

Six Shooter wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:Six Shooter, everyone agrees it's not an NFA firearm. The ATF said as much and that's not in question.
End of story.
No, it's not the end of the story. States are allowed to have their own rules. There's nothing in the law that says states are required to conform to the NFA and allow anything not specifically prohibited by it.
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Post by Six Shooter »

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
WY_Not wrote:Really stupid question. Why classify it as a "firearm"? If being built on a "virgin" receiver with a pistol grip, why not classify it as a pistol?
First, all pistols, shotguns and rifles (excluding airguns) are firearms (under the GCA). Saying it's a firearm doesn't mean it's not a pistol, or a shotgun.

It's not classified as a pistol because it doesn't meet the definition of pistol in the law. This isn't about the ATF's opinion, it's about the letter of the law which may not always be logical but it's how the law is written.

Are you a Lawyer ?
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

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Six Shooter wrote:Are you a Lawyer ?
Why? You've already read the opinion of one lawyer and dismissed it as someone "sink[ing] to certain depths for business". If I am is that good? Or if I'm not? The fact is it doesn't make a difference to the accuracy (or lack thereof) of the information posted here.

Don't worry about other people's backgrounds. Even someone here who is a lawyer, anything they tell you here isn't "legal advice". Also, the law applies to everyone regardless of their profession or background. Being a lawyer or not being a lawyer doesn't change whether a particular law will apply.
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Post by JimE »

Ohio's firearms laws need a good clean-up by people who understand the issues, the sooner the better, before this mess ends up in the courts and someone becomes
the victim of an anti-gun prosecutor and judge.
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Post by Six Shooter »

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
Six Shooter wrote:Are you a Lawyer ?
Why? You've already read the opinion of one lawyer and dismissed it as someone "sink[ing] to certain depths for business". If I am is that good? Or if I'm not? The fact is it doesn't make a difference to the accuracy (or lack thereof) of the information posted here.

Don't worry about other people's backgrounds. Even someone here who is a lawyer, anything they tell you here isn't "legal advice". Also, the law applies to everyone regardless of their profession or background. Being a lawyer or not being a lawyer doesn't change whether a particular law will apply.

Wow.

Six Shooter wrote:Are you a Lawyer ?
DontTreadOnMe wrote:Don't worry about other people's backgrounds.
I will take that as a "no".

You're not a Lawyer.


Ask a simple question....

And, get a wall of "hate" text.
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Post by DontTreadOnMe »

JimE wrote:Ohio's firearms laws need a good clean-up by people who understand the issues, the sooner the better, before this mess ends up in the courts and someone becomes
the victim of an anti-gun prosecutor and judge.
I'd like to believe the OGA will move quickly to correct this issue in Ohio's gun laws.
I'd also like to believe I'll win the lottery.

In reality I think it'll take a sympathetic law-abiding gun owner getting arrested for that to happen. If the first person arrested with one of these is someone with a criminal background, the law will probably never get changed.

OTOH Texas is moving quickly to make this legal there:
"It was brought to our attention by TSRA members that the Mossberg 590 Shockwave cannot be purchased in two states: Texas and Ohio.

With the problem in mind, Senator Craig Estes (R-Wichita Falls) offered a senate amendment to the House bill which corrects existing state law.

The addition of the senate amendment caused HB1819 to be returned to the House for concurrence and at 8:55 last night HB1819 with the amendment was accepted! The amendment will allow Texans to purchase this defensive shotgun."
This has already been passed on 5/22 and is awaiting the TX Governor's signature.

Here's what the current Texas law says:
Texas Penal Code 46.01(10)
"Short-barrel firearm" means a rifle with a barrel length of less than 16 inches or a shotgun with a barrel length of less than 18 inches, or any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle if, as altered, it has an overall length of less than 26 inches.
Compare that to Ohio law:
RC 2923.11(F)
"Sawed-off firearm" means a shotgun with a barrel less than eighteen inches long, or a rifle with a barrel less than sixteen inches long, or a shotgun or rifle less than twenty-six inches long overall.
Those are functionally identical. Think about that implication for the Shockwave's legality here in Ohio.
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Post by Six Shooter »

DontTreadOnMe wrote:I'd like to believe the OGA will move quickly to correct this issue in Ohio's gun laws.
I'd also like to believe I'll win the lottery.

Correct... what law ?

DontTreadOnMe wrote:In reality I think it'll take a sympathetic law-abiding gun owner getting arrested for that to happen.

It sounds like you are wishing for that to happen.


Shame on you.... for being so anti-American.
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Post by budman70 »

My buddy bought one at the local gun shop here in Ohio. The shop call to get what to write it up as and was told ( other ).
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Post by djthomas »

Yes Texas is moving quickly but they have to. Their legislative session adjourns on May 29th and they won't normally reconvene until January 2019. Literally if they don't fix it this week it's done for two years.
budman70 wrote:My buddy bought one at the local gun shop here in Ohio. The shop call to get what to write it up as and was told ( other ).
And that's correct as far as the Federal 4473 goes. But it's still a sawed off shotgun (dangerous ordnance) in the eyes of Ohio law.
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Post by WY_Not »

And that is why I was asking. There was a similar dust up a number of years back about putting pistol grips on shotguns. Vaguely remember that (I think) one of the manufacturers got around this by starting them out from the factory with pistol grips and putting such on the forms/paperwork. Don't remember any details just bits and pieces.
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
WY_Not wrote:Really stupid question. Why classify it as a "firearm"? If being built on a "virgin" receiver with a pistol grip, why not classify it as a pistol?
First, all pistols, shotguns and rifles (excluding airguns) are firearms (under the GCA). Saying it's a firearm doesn't mean it's not a pistol, or a shotgun.

It's not classified as a pistol because it doesn't meet the definition of pistol in the law. This isn't about the ATF's opinion, it's about the letter of the law which may not always be logical but it's how the law is written.
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Post by WY_Not »

So, put the absolute bare minimum depth rifling in the barrels and make the twist rate negligible? Or is there a barrel diameter restriction in there somewhere also?
Six Shooter wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:Six Shooter, everyone agrees it's not an NFA firearm. The ATF said as much and that's not in question.
End of story.
WY_Not wrote:Why classify it as a "firearm"? If being built on a "virgin" receiver with a pistol grip, why not classify it as a pistol?
If the barrel had rifling, it would be classified as a handgun.
Learn how Project Appleseed is supporting freedom through Marksmanship and Heritage clinics.
Samuel Adams wrote:If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.
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