No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

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No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Postby BEAR! » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:56 am

I was checking out the new Mossberg Shockwave on Bud's Guns website an noticed that they said that they couldn't ship it to Ohio or Texas.

Anyone have any idea why?
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Postby Brian D. » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:27 pm

I read up on its specs but don't recall much now, a few weeks later, Bear. Could barrel or overall length be Ohio-prohibited?
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Postby DontTreadOnMe » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:39 pm

I think that's it Brian. ORC 2923.11 defines any shotgun with a barrel less than 18" as a sawed-off firearm, and later defines dangerous ordnance to include a sawed-off firearm.

I think you could still legally possess one in Ohio with a permit from the sheriff, but that wouldn't necessarily be valid statewide.
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Postby JustaShooter » Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:59 pm

I think purchase and possession is legal even without special paperwork or permit in Ohio. Since Federal law doesn't consider it a shotgun, and I cant find where Ohio law defines shotgun, I don't think it is a shotgun, no matter what cartridge it fires. As a "Firearm" under Federal law, it looks to me like ORC 2923.11 (L)(6) covers it:

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.11

(L) "Dangerous ordnance" does not include any of the following:

(1) Any firearm, including a military weapon and the ammunition for that weapon, and regardless of its actual age, that employs a percussion cap or other obsolete ignition system, or that is designed and safe for use only with black powder;

(2) Any pistol, rifle, or shotgun, designed or suitable for sporting purposes, including a military weapon as issued or as modified, and the ammunition for that weapon, unless the firearm is an automatic or sawed-off firearm;

(3) Any cannon or other artillery piece that, regardless of its actual age, is of a type in accepted use prior to 1887, has no mechanical, hydraulic, pneumatic, or other system for absorbing recoil and returning the tube into battery without displacing the carriage, and is designed and safe for use only with black powder;

(4) Black powder, priming quills, and percussion caps possessed and lawfully used to fire a cannon of a type defined in division (L)(3) of this section during displays, celebrations, organized matches or shoots, and target practice, and smokeless and black powder, primers, and percussion caps possessed and lawfully used as a propellant or ignition device in small-arms or small-arms ammunition;

(5) Dangerous ordnance that is inoperable or inert and cannot readily be rendered operable or activated, and that is kept as a trophy, souvenir, curio, or museum piece.

(6) Any device that is expressly excepted from the definition of a destructive device pursuant to the "Gun Control Act of 1968," 82 Stat. 1213, 18 U.S.C. 921 (a)(4), as amended, and regulations issued under that act.
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Postby DontTreadOnMe » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:06 pm

JustaShooter wrote:I think purchase and possession is legal even without special paperwork or permit in Ohio. Since Federal law doesn't consider it a shotgun, and I cant find where Ohio law defines shotgun, I don't think it is a shotgun


Good luck with that. The manufacturer calls it a shotgun:

Go to https://www.mossberg.com/firearms/
Click 'Shotguns' at the left
Then click 'Pump-Action'
590® Shockwave appears in that list.

Just because it is not a shotgun for the purpose of the Gun Control Act of 1968 doesn't mean it's not a shotgun under all laws. Nothing in Ohio law defines 'shotgun' but nothing in Ohio law explicitly defers to the GCA of 1968 for the definition either.
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Postby JustaShooter » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:04 pm

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
JustaShooter wrote:I think purchase and possession is legal even without special paperwork or permit in Ohio. Since Federal law doesn't consider it a shotgun, and I cant find where Ohio law defines shotgun, I don't think it is a shotgun


Good luck with that. The manufacturer calls it a shotgun:

Go to https://www.mossberg.com/firearms/
Click 'Shotguns' at the left
Then click 'Pump-Action'
590® Shockwave appears in that list.

Just because it is not a shotgun for the purpose of the Gun Control Act of 1968 doesn't mean it's not a shotgun under all laws. Nothing in Ohio law defines 'shotgun' but nothing in Ohio law explicitly defers to the GCA of 1968 for the definition either.

No, the manufacturer doesn't "call it a shotgun". They call it a "firearm" and link to the ATF letter that they use to base that categorization. Yes, they list it in the shotgun section of their website, perhaps misguidedly.

Regardless, I generally distrust "luck", rather preferring to rely on a reasoned approach to such things. I've laid out a case whereby I believe the Shockwave is legal in Ohio and is not a sawed-off shotgun. If you can lay out a case disputing it under Ohio law, please do, and if I find i compelling I'll change my stance. Thus far, you have failed to do that.
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Postby JimE » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:10 pm

Mossberg's instructions are to mark it as "other firearm" on the 4473.
As a "other firearm", it not considered a shotgun,handgun, SBS, or AOW, unless you modify it, or attempt to carry it concealed.
Considering how long ago, and how sloppy some of Ohio's law's were written, they probably never envisioned a 12ga "firearm" with a sub-18" barrel not being
covered under the NFA. But then, how many of us did ?
There is also a similar firearm from Black Aces Tactical that I know has been sold in Ohio....had someone trying to sell one.
I have read the Ohio reg's, and best guess is.....who knows. (I'm not a legal eagle either)
I do know that Mossberg will not ship one to Ohio, but they have shipped to distributors here.(Can't say if they were sold in Ohio)
Someone is going to have to have a very long, technical discussion with Mr. Dewine's office.
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Postby JustaShooter » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:05 am

JimE wrote:I do know that Mossberg will not ship one to Ohio, but they have shipped to distributors here.(Can't say if they were sold in Ohio)


I know of several that have been sold in Ohio. Note that I do not believe this necessarily has any actual bearing on their legality in Ohio - see Tannerite and springblade knife sales to non-LEOs as examples of things that get sold whose legality is questionable...

JimE wrote:Someone is going to have to have a very long, technical discussion with Mr. Dewine's office.


Unfortunately, I don't know who that would be. The AG office's position has been to only answer inquiries about legalities from agents of the state, referring Ohio residents to lawyers instead.
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Postby Face » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:01 am

No link - but Remington just announced a similar 870 .
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Postby pirateguy191 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:58 am

Face wrote:No link - but Remington just announced a similar 870 .


http://soldiersystems.net/2017/04/27/re ... m=facebook
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Postby DontTreadOnMe » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:13 am

JustaShooter wrote:I've laid out a case whereby I believe the Shockwave is legal in Ohio and is not a sawed-off shotgun. If you can lay out a case disputing it under Ohio law, please do, and if I find i compelling I'll change my stance. Thus far, you have failed to do that.


Have you? You said it was allowed under 2923.11(L)(6) "Any device that is expressly excepted from the definition of a destructive device pursuant to the "Gun Control Act of 1968," 82 Stat. 1213, 18 U.S.C. 921 (a)(4), as amended, and regulations issued under that act."

However you've failed to show where this device is "expressly excepted from the definition of a destructive device" pursuant to the GCA of 1968. I suspect you believe that since it doesn't fall under the definition of 'shotgun' under the GCA that means it's exempted, but those are under different parts of the law. Here's what the GCA says about "destructive device"

(4) The term "destructive device" means--
(A) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas --
(i) bomb,
(ii) grenade,
(iii) rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces,
(iv) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than
one-quarter ounce,
(v) mine, or
(vi) device similar to any of the devices described in the
preceding clauses;
(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which
the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable
for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may
be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an
explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of
more than one-half inch in diameter; and
(C) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in
converting any device into any destructive device described in
subparagraph (A) or (B) and from which a destructive device may be
readily assembled.


The Mossberg Shockwave is a Destructive Device under this part of the GCA, as it will "expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant" and has "a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter".

Therefore the fact that the Shockwave isn't a "shotgun" under the GCA's definition doesn't mean it is exempted from the definition of a Destructive Device. In fact it clearly falls under that definition as shown above.

Still as you point out, it would be exempted as a Dangerous Ordnance under Ohio law if it were "expressly excepted from the definition of a destructive device pursuant to " the GCA. You think it is, but let's continue reading the actual law:

The term "destructive device" shall not include any device which is neither
designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally
designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling,
pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordinance sold,
loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of
section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10; or any other device which the
Secretary of the Treasury finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an
antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting,
recreational or cultural purposes.


Those are the "express exemptions" that Ohio law is referring to. None of which apply to the Shockwave.
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Postby JimE » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:18 pm

I would think if it fit the definition of a Destructive Device, ATF would have never allowed it to be sold outside of the NFA anywhere in the country.
Our problem is The ORC's definition , and a lack of guidance from anyone of authority.
Does anyone have a good relationship with a Prosecutor or Law Director, who is well versed in firearms, that is willing to ask the AG for clarification ?
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Postby DontTreadOnMe » Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:02 pm

Just to be clear Jim, that definition of destructive device I posted is from the GCA not the NFA, and only to show this item is not an exception to the GCA's definition of a destructive device.

They're different laws with different definition for terms, which is how the ATF was able to determine the shockwave is a firearm (under the GCA) but is not a firearm (under the NFA). Yes I wrote that right. People should read the actual ATF letter.
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Postby JimE » Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:08 am

Here is a link to the approval letter from ATF to Mossberg for the Shockwave.
http://www.mossberg.com/wp-content/uplo ... 3-2-17.pdf

When you click the link, it will automatically download a pdf of the letter.
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Re: No Mossberg shockwave for Ohio?

Postby steves 50de » Mon May 01, 2017 8:27 pm

pirateguy191 wrote:
Face wrote:No link - but Remington just announced a similar 870 .


http://soldiersystems.net/2017/04/27/re ... m=facebook

I want one. :D
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