New carry gun

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Pops Fun
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New carry gun

Post by Pops Fun »

Hi
Today I bought a new Smith & Wesson MP9c. :) Same model I have been carrying, How many rounds til I can say it's "broken in"??
I figure 200 to 300 rounds should do it! Shot 150 today and it functioned well, had 1 slight problem, the slide didn't return
completely leaving a slight gap near the bullet. or saying it a different way..... The slide stuck out over the rear of gun. I know not very good description. :oops:
Otherwise flawless. I was shooting Aquila ammo.
Anyway, how many rounds til you would feel safe using it as your carry gun.

Steve
Steve

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techmike
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Re: New carry gun

Post by techmike »

The slide stuck out over the rear of gun

"Did not return to battery" is commonly used to describe this issue. I just read an article and the author's position is as follows: Reliability. I use the ‘2000 round challenge‘ that TLG outlines. Though an initial 200-300 round break-in and subsequent testing with carry ammo is a good start down that road.
2000 rounds? Seems like a lot to me, but I guess it depends on ammo budget too. 200-300 with zero malfs would seem to be a universal goal. The remainder of the article is HERE. Warning - there are some pictures of folk that shot themselves and/or car because of defective holsters or gun handling.
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Pops Fun
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Re: New carry gun

Post by Pops Fun »

Thanks for the reply, I'll take a look at the article. 2000 seems extreme :)
Return to battery, thought that was the phrase but wasn't sure.....

Again thanks. Steve
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Re: New carry gun

Post by JustaShooter »

My personal standard is 400 rounds of factory ball ammo without any ammo-related stoppages, then 100 rounds of my chosen carry ammo. I agree, 2000 seems a bit much.
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Re: New carry gun

Post by Brian D. »

You can save a little of the hollow point ammo during break-in by loading it alternately with ball in the magazines. Fire the ball ammo, see if the next JHP loads in properly, hand cycle it out, fire the next ball round, etc.
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JustaShooter
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Re: New carry gun

Post by JustaShooter »

Brian D. wrote:You can save a little of the hollow point ammo during break-in by loading it alternately with ball in the magazines. Fire the ball ammo, see if the next JHP loads in properly, hand cycle it out, fire the next ball round, etc.
Interesting approach - but since the recoil impulse from the carry ammo is different, you aren't testing to see if the SD ammo will properly extract & load the next SD cartridge, and a couple of other items I can think of.

If money is that tight, I suppose it is better than not testing. But since SD ammo can be had for $0.50/round online, it isn't overly expensive to run a couple boxes through the gun.
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Re: New carry gun

Post by Brian D. »

Don't try to out-technical me on my birthday! :lol: There are lots of little tricks to ascertain reliability that most folks don't think to try at all. Guns that run fine in a steady, two hand hold may not when you go to strong/weak hand only, fire from odd positions, etc. Best to give those things a whirl too, if the range allows them.
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Re: New carry gun

Post by TSiWRX »

Failure to return-to-battery is not uncommon for certain semi-auto handguns, and this stoppage is also more common for all semi-auto reciprocating-"slide" handguns as the gun gets progressively dirtier from use, either from true environmental dirt/grime or from simple carbon-fouling from the discharge of live ammo, particularly as the gun's lube is consumed through use.

"Limp wristing" the pistol can also cause this stoppage.

In training classes, you'll typically be taught either to simply give the rear of the slide a firm forward (towards the muzzle) tap using the heel of your hand (as a part of "diagnostic stoppage reduction" - i.e. that you are able to diagnose the problem, and give the gun an appropriate solution: If the out-of-battery condition is truly just that, then this simple and quick motion should definitively solve this stoppage) to force the slide into battery or, alternatively, to simply use the non-diagnostic method of "tap/rack/reassess" (tapping the base of the magazine firmly, which can both seat an improperly seated magazine and also possibly jar the gun sufficiently to reduce other stoppage conditions, followed by racking the slide sharply to extract the problem cartridge/case and allow loading of the next cartridge in the magazine stack) to rectify this stoppage.

As for when a gun can be called dependable?

This is something that only you can answer - each of us have different views on this: some will carry a gun straight out of the box, while others will want their guns to go thousands of rounds before considering them broken-in and trustworthy.

Me? I'm somewhere in-between.

My view is that if a gun is going to have problems "out of the box," it's going to do it sooner rather than later. Typically, this will manifest as either true production problems or may be as simple as the gun preferring certain types of ammo over others (and this latter consideration is tremendously important, as the unique firearm you hold in your hands is just that - absolutely unique: even as mass-produced consumer goods that are under strict tolerances, those tolerances can still stack, and it's not uncommon to see that *your* M&P9c may have problems with a certain make and model of ammo, while your instructors M&P9c, your brother-in-law's M&P9c, and Joe-Bob-from-the-gun-shop's M&P9c all do not - always vet your ammo, particularly your defensive ammo), and in most cases, you won't have to go long before any such issue manifest.

That said, there are also concerns which may not manifest until you've had a few tens or hundreds of rounds through the handgun, without cleaning/re-lubing. While such a scenario is unlikely for us law-abiding citizens using the handgun for daily concealed carry or home-defense, to many in the community, it's still nice to know whether or not you can trust the gun during a zombie apocalypse :P . Here, it's important to realize that "context" matters. Is the gun having problems after just a few dozen rounds due to carbon-fouling, in the context of a relatively "sterile" indoor shooting range? Or are those malfunctions coming after the shooter's rolled around in the sand and dirt from practicing ground or unorthodox shooting positions, outdoors?

Overall, there's also always a balance between too few (i.e. do you actually have sufficient data?) versus too many (what's to say that some small spring in the trigger mechanism won't break the next time you press that trigger, when you've got "5000 flawless rounds" through the gun?).
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Re: New carry gun

Post by Pops Fun »

Brian D. wrote:Don't try to out-technical me on my birthday! :lol: There are lots of little tricks to ascertain reliability that most folks don't think to try at all. Guns that run fine in a steady, two hand hold may not when you go to strong/weak hand only, fire from odd positions, etc. Best to give those things a whirl too, if the range allows them.
Thanks, tried strong arm and everything was great... Hit the target and everything lol Weak arm.... still building strength after my accident Maybe after a few more months. :)
Steve

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Re: New carry gun

Post by BuckJM53 »

Pops Fun wrote:Hi
Today I bought a new Smith & Wesson MP9c. :) ..... Anyway, how many rounds til you would feel safe using it as your carry gun.
Steve
Steve ... Congrats on your new M&P9c :D.

Regarding how many rounds, I look at it a bit differently than most. The problem in my view with setting a specific "large" number of rounds before you feel comfortable to carry a gun, is that every gun has the potential to fail given the fact that it is a mechanical device. Will it happen at round 5, 55, 102, 210, 450, 506 or maybe never .... who knows? Accordingly, while it's certainly important IMHO to run a reasonable number of rounds through a new carry gun to get used to it and break it in a bit (for me it's 50 rounds of FMJ and 25 rounds of JHP), it's equally important to be proficient in the process of clearing any malfunctions in the event that one happens at an inopportune time. YMMV
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Re: New carry gun

Post by Brian D. »

My previous post was borne out at TDI this weekend. Saw a couple of brand name semiautomatics that glitched during strong/weak hand only drills. You could tell by owner reaction they had no idea this could happen, and worse, what to do next. Fortunately they had good range safety officers who made these teachable moments.

Two other students had guns with magazine disconnect "features" which the shooters learned about for the first time during an exercise that combine live fire/dry fire in sequence, this is to work on dealing with and hopefully reducing flinch. One gun here was a M&P 9C model, coincidentally. Sure enough its slide didn't have the "Warning, this gun will fire without magazine inserted" stamping. Yes they were and are still made both ways. Someone carrying it should know that already, you'd hope.

That latter is a topic for another day though.
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Pops Fun
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Re: New carry gun

Post by Pops Fun »

Brian D. wrote:My previous post was borne out at TDI this weekend. Saw a couple of brand name semiautomatics that glitched during strong/weak hand only drills. You could tell by owner reaction they had no idea this could happen, and worse, what to do next. Fortunately they had good range safety officers who made these teachable moments.

Two other students had guns with magazine disconnect "features" which the shooters learned about for the first time during an exercise that combine live fire/dry fire in sequence, this is to work on dealing with and hopefully reducing flinch. One gun here was a M&P 9C model, coincidentally. Sure enough its slide didn't have the "Warning, this gun will fire without magazine inserted" stamping. Yes they were and are still made both ways. Someone carrying it should know that already, you'd hope.

That latter is a topic for another day though.
Hey, that wasn't my grandson was it. :oops: He is an avid hunter, shotgun and Bow are his tools. ( a little bragging) He didn't decide what to shoot until the day before... lol My old carry gun... My new one doesn't have the mag disconnect, Live an learn. :) By the way he had a ball, wish I could have been there, gunk coming from both ends... :cry: Thanks for the help. I don't believe he has ever done a weak hand drill before, live and learn.
When I was his age, I had not touched a gun, much less shot one, I think he is ahead of the game now, again thanks for the help.

As an aside, how did my granddaughter do, the redhead. lol

Steve
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Re: New carry gun

Post by Brian D. »

Hey Steve guess I had your kinfolk in the squad, S&W 9c being used by the young man, plus (striking young) redhead granddaughter using a 9mm Shield I think, can't be a coincidence. They both did fine, as they listened well from beginning to end of day, were safe throughout, I could see some increased confidence and better performance as we went along. Plus they pitched in and helped plenty with target pasting etc. Squad B if you ask them.

Anyhow back on topic, kinda, the other gun in our group with mag disconnect, unknown to user, was a Ruger striker fire in .45 acp. Got to plead ignorance here myself, don't even remember the model name of this one. Anybody know if they offer those without the disconnect?

Hope you feel better now, Steve. Got to make it feel so much worse, knowing now that you missed spending an entire day with me, too, on top of being at home with the miseries. :mrgreen:
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Re: New carry gun

Post by M-Quigley »

Pops Fun wrote:Hi
Today I bought a new Smith & Wesson MP9c. :) Same model I have been carrying, How many rounds til I can say it's "broken in"??
I figure 200 to 300 rounds should do it! Shot 150 today and it functioned well, had 1 slight problem, the slide didn't return
completely leaving a slight gap near the bullet. or saying it a different way..... The slide stuck out over the rear of gun. I know not very good description. :oops:
Otherwise flawless. I was shooting Aquila ammo.
Anyway, how many rounds til you would feel safe using it as your carry gun.

Steve
I would suggest after you get through 2-300 rds of the Aquila, to do what others have suggested, also try some of the ammo that you're actually going to carry in it defensively. (if it's not Aquila)

I tried out the M&P9c last year when I was looking for an compact double stack nine, and liked it. Didn't have the money for one or I probably would've gotten one myself.

Last year I bought a handgun produced by a company with, shall we say, not a good past history of making reliable handguns. Since this one was extremely inexpensive and I already had a reliable handgun to depend on, I gave it a shot. In addition to merely testing it with ball ammo, I also tested it with a wide variety of defensive ammo. I even had a neighbor give me ammo to test out, I guess hoping to see it fail with something. :lol: At first he and others said it wouldn't make it 500 rounds without a malfunction. One guy said that it was good that I brought the gun to a contest, because I would get a lot of practice doing malfunction drills. :roll: The irony is this guy later had 2 malfunctions with his handgun, and initially just stood there looking at it, because it supposedly never happened before. :lol: The gun has been fired both one and two handed, in temps from zero degrees to high 90's. Afterwards 500 wasn't good enough, and 1000 seemed to be the new standard. After it had a thousand rounds successfully, his new standard was 2000. :roll: This btw isn't a duty gun or a competition gun, merely a gun that will mostly carried and not shot a lot of rounds frequently.

Guns and Ammo has a test they call the typewriter test. This drill draws from different loads and bullet weights staggered in each magazine. Supposedly springs and small parts must instantly react to the changing pressures resulting from different loads. Although I don't consider it a requirement for a defensive gun, just for the heck of it, I tried it. I had everything from 50 grain 9mm to 147 grain, all mixed in the same magazines. So far the things running like a champ.
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Re: New carry gun

Post by Brian D. »

M-Quigley wrote:
Last year I bought a handgun produced by a company with, shall we say, not a good past history of making reliable handguns. Since this one was extremely inexpensive and I already had a reliable handgun to depend on, I gave it a shot. In addition to merely testing it with ball ammo, I also tested it with a wide variety of defensive ammo. I even had a neighbor give me ammo to test out, I guess hoping to see it fail with something. :lol: At first he and others said it wouldn't make it 500 rounds without a malfunction. One guy said that it was good that I brought the gun to a contest, because I would get a lot of practice doing malfunction drills. :roll: The irony is this guy later had 2 malfunctions with his handgun, and initially just stood there looking at it, because it supposedly never happened before. :lol: The gun has been fired both one and two handed, in temps from zero degrees to high 90's. Afterwards 500 wasn't good enough, and 1000 seemed to be the new standard. After it had a thousand rounds successfully, his new standard was 2000. :roll: This btw isn't a duty gun or a competition gun, merely a gun that will mostly carried and not shot a lot of rounds frequently.
I always say, if you get one of "those" that works right..and I don't even know what brand we're talking about here..never ever trade it off then expect the next one to be the same way.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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