Agreed. I was merely pointing out the continual discussion here at OFCC regarding "over-penetration" and the frequent citing of Massad Ayoob. My concealed carry bullets are maxed out .357 magnum Lyman 35893 spire points cast of my own special alloy of Pb+Ag+As ...brewed it up myself and have fired them through cast iron skillets. In short, I want them to go all the way to ChinaTSiWRX wrote:To me, there is no "over" penetration. There is simply a need to pay attention to the background.
A Discussion of the Perfect Trunk Gun?
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Re: A Discussion of the Perfect Trunk Gun?
Give em' Hell Pike!!!
- TSiWRX
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Re: A Discussion of the Perfect Trunk Gun?
OMG! Think of all the Chinese children! Think of my cousins!!!!
I'm tracking, now.
I'm tracking, now.
Allen - Shaker Heights, Ohio
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Re: A Discussion of the Perfect Trunk Gun?
My ideal trunk gun is a lever action in .357. Good ballistics at ranges that I would ever need it for, matches caliber of my Coonan, can reload on the fly, no magazines to worry about, can be had cheaper than any AR, and don't have to worry about the anti-gun nuts screaming about evil black guns if they see it.
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Re: A Discussion of the Perfect Trunk Gun?
Clearly you "get it". I wish more people "got it". Sheriff Jim Wilson "gets it" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c71cGMb6sUbunkeru2k wrote:My ideal trunk gun is a lever action in .357. Good ballistics at ranges that I would ever need it for, matches caliber of my Coonan, can reload on the fly, no magazines to worry about, can be had cheaper than any AR, and don't have to worry about the anti-gun nuts screaming about evil black guns if they see it.
Give em' Hell Pike!!!
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Re: A Discussion of the Perfect Trunk Gun?
Bonus points for style, too.
Allen - Shaker Heights, Ohio
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Re: A Discussion of the Perfect Trunk Gun?
But slower reloads.
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Re: A Discussion of the Perfect Trunk Gun?
Lead, silver, and arsenic? Werewolves and vampires?glocksmith wrote:Agreed. I was merely pointing out the continual discussion here at OFCC regarding "over-penetration" and the frequent citing of Massad Ayoob. My concealed carry bullets are maxed out .357 magnum Lyman 35893 spire points cast of my own special alloy of Pb+Ag+As ...brewed it up myself and have fired them through cast iron skillets. In short, I want them to go all the way to ChinaTSiWRX wrote:To me, there is no "over" penetration. There is simply a need to pay attention to the background.
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Re: A Discussion of the Perfect Trunk Gun?
Not yet at least. I got the idea from Garrett's Cartridges. They use a proprietary alloy of Pb, Ag and As which has been found to be extremely hard, 22-25 brinnell, yet retains its plasticity. I came up with my own alloy based on Garrett's experience.calvin56 wrote:Lead, silver, and arsenic? Werewolves and vampires?glocksmith wrote:Agreed. I was merely pointing out the continual discussion here at OFCC regarding "over-penetration" and the frequent citing of Massad Ayoob. My concealed carry bullets are maxed out .357 magnum Lyman 35893 spire points cast of my own special alloy of Pb+Ag+As ...brewed it up myself and have fired them through cast iron skillets. In short, I want them to go all the way to ChinaTSiWRX wrote:To me, there is no "over" penetration. There is simply a need to pay attention to the background.
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/faq.html#q7
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Re: A Discussion of the Perfect Trunk Gun?
I dunno. Based on a few studies I've read, physiological stopping power is based upon permanent cavitation (not temporary cavitation from hydrostatic shock) in all three axes. Penetration (i.e., cavitation in a single axis) is not magic, either.TSiWRX wrote:^ I'm not convinced, with the above article, particularly given its mention of the Glaser rounds.
Penetration = wounding = physiologic stop.
Penetration will always carry a concern for the backstop/background.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
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"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
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Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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Re: A Discussion of the Perfect Trunk Gun?
Isn't the lethality of the permanent cavity based on penetration?
I get what you're saying, Werz, but in terms of the Glazer and other rounds like it, is that not the birdshot argument all over again?
I agree, we need a large permanent cavity. But if that deficit/lesion is superficial, it's much less likely to effect physiologic stop than a permanent cavity of sufficient size that effects penetration to the vital anatomic features.
I get what you're saying, Werz, but in terms of the Glazer and other rounds like it, is that not the birdshot argument all over again?
I agree, we need a large permanent cavity. But if that deficit/lesion is superficial, it's much less likely to effect physiologic stop than a permanent cavity of sufficient size that effects penetration to the vital anatomic features.
Allen - Shaker Heights, Ohio
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Re: A Discussion of the Perfect Trunk Gun?
The operator of the prefect trunk gun is pre-loaded with anti-gun-control arguments at every opportunity.. Having said that, every chance you see in a conversation (public or Facebook, etc.) you are well versed in the situations that you might find yourself arguing against..
Its loaded with the ammo that you have the most magazines and ammo supply of.
What do you shoot the most accurately & what is the setting you're most likely to find yourself in? .17, .22, .223, 22-250, .243, .270, 300? 5.56, 5.7, 6.5, 7.62 x ?? ? Shotgun? rifled for sabots or smooth bore? The variables are endless.
Its loaded with the ammo that you have the most magazines and ammo supply of.
What do you shoot the most accurately & what is the setting you're most likely to find yourself in? .17, .22, .223, 22-250, .243, .270, 300? 5.56, 5.7, 6.5, 7.62 x ?? ? Shotgun? rifled for sabots or smooth bore? The variables are endless.
"If you are not prepared to use force to defend civilization, then be prepared to accept barbarism."
Thomas Sowell, Knowledge And Decisions
Never forget and Never again, Molon labe
Thomas Sowell, Knowledge And Decisions
Never forget and Never again, Molon labe
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Re: A Discussion of the Perfect Trunk Gun?
At one of the shooting exercises I attended, the guy who set up the course of fire had a BG armed target about 15 yards away, and some no shoot targets behind it. There was no way to get an effective hit on the BG target without putting holes in one of the no shoot targets. Shooting a no shoot target cost you 50 points, whereas the most you could get from shooting the BG was 10 points. There was simulated cover available but no one was told they had to use it. Everyone but two people tried to either shoot the BG target or just stood there in the open, trying to figure out what to do. At the end when someone complained that there was no way to shoot the BG without the bullet penetrating through and hitting a no shoot target, he said that was the whole point. What you were supposed to do was take cover and not shoot. That seemed to be a very difficult concept for some people to grasp.TSiWRX wrote:Exactly.jeep45238 wrote:Javelin Man wrote: I think that's the primary reason for having a long gun period - penetration and capacity. If you're going to get any type of projectile launcher, there is ALWAYS going to be a decent risk of "over" penetration.
The reason for this is the variations of humans and our densities. Look at a bus stop, and you'll likely see weights ranging from 130-350 pounds, with a very large discrepancy in the depth of the chest/torso region. You can't expect to penetrate the deep chest cavity enough to incapacitate without going through the very shallow one with a typical rifle cartridge.
There's no magic bullet, yet.
I always need to mind my background. I always need to mind my foreground.
The variables of the target means that penetration is just penetration - and I just need it in order to have the lethal effect I need, to defend myself effectively against the lethal threat that I am facing.
To me, there is no "over" penetration. There is simply a need to pay attention to the background.
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Re: A Discussion of the Perfect Trunk Gun?
^ Exactly.
Excellent post.
It's a game of angles - and sometimes, we must wait. Sometimes, we must not shoot.
The mechanics of shooting is relatively easy, compared to the thinking portion.
Excellent post.
It's a game of angles - and sometimes, we must wait. Sometimes, we must not shoot.
The mechanics of shooting is relatively easy, compared to the thinking portion.
Allen - Shaker Heights, Ohio
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Re: A Discussion of the Perfect Trunk Gun?
My little shooting group has been known to set up drills like that once in a great while. I recall being able to take a good shot by getting really low, one time. Was behind cover and we have a pretty high backstop. On another occasion the set up was similar but the upward angle was too great, so I held fire.M-Quigley wrote:
At one of the shooting exercises I attended, the guy who set up the course of fire had a BG armed target about 15 yards away, and some no shoot targets behind it. There was no way to get an effective hit on the BG target without putting holes in one of the no shoot targets. Shooting a no shoot target cost you 50 points, whereas the most you could get from shooting the BG was 10 points. There was simulated cover available but no one was told they had to use it. Everyone but two people tried to either shoot the BG target or just stood there in the open, trying to figure out what to do. At the end when someone complained that there was no way to shoot the BG without the bullet penetrating through and hitting a no shoot target, he said that was the whole point. What you were supposed to do was take cover and not shoot. That seemed to be a very difficult concept for some people to grasp.
You won't see these things in a match setting, but practicing/training with friends opens up more possibilities.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!
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1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
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Re: A Discussion of the Perfect Trunk Gun?
My trunk gun is a Mosin M53 I bought when they were inexpensive. As the t-shirt says, 7.62x54R, because sometimes targets try to hide behind things. If the aggressors are so determined that watching a half dozen or so of their comrades rolling on the ground leaking bodily fluids does not deter them then I'm probably toast anyway.