P38 or P1??

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jhfenton
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Post by jhfenton »

Petrofergov wrote:I suppose one of the aspects of collecting that keeps me so interested are the various histories that come with these old guns.

Case in point....

The Nagant revolver. You can get one in pristine condition for 90 bucks.

[snip]

Yes, you to can own a piece of Czarist Russian history for only 90 bucks. Heck, they even ship with a holster, cleaning rod, and lanyard all in unissued condition.
I picked up a Nagant revolver from AIM for $80 a couple weeks ago just as a curiousity. The trigger pull is the worst I've ever felt on any firearm, but it's still cool--and it's in great condition. I plan on picking up brass and reloading dies, so I can fire it once a year. :)

John
Petrovich
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Post by Petrovich »

jhfenton wrote: I picked up a Nagant revolver from AIM for $80 a couple weeks ago just as a curiousity. The trigger pull is the worst I've ever felt on any firearm, but it's still cool--and it's in great condition. I plan on picking up brass and reloading dies, so I can fire it once a year. :)

John
They just got some ammo in a about a week ago.

Not cheap....29 bucks a box but it's new manufacture so it's reloadable.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/New_ ... ition.html
jhfenton
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Post by jhfenton »

Thanks. They must have gotten that in just after I picked up my revolver.

I was aware of the Fiocchi, and it's high price. I may still buy a box just to get started. I'd have a factory round to use as a model, and I could probably make the brass last for years.

John
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Post by Petrovich »

jhfenton wrote:Thanks. They must have gotten that in just after I picked up my revolver.

I was aware of the Fiocchi, and it's high price. I may still buy a box just to get started. I'd have a factory round to use as a model, and I could probably make the brass last for years.

John
50 or 100 brass would last a long time. Maybe outlast the gun.. :D :shock: It's a relatively low pressure pistol cartridge I think, and since you are reloading I am sure you will probably load light. It's not gonna throw the cases all over creation either like a semi.

Let us know how the thing shoots.
SMMAssociates
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Post by SMMAssociates »

Most of the ones I see today are offered in .380 ACP, but James Bond carried it in .25 ACP, I believe.
If memory serves (which might be a first), Bond originally carried a .25 - possibly a Baby Browning until somebody reminded Ian Fleming just how big a joke that was. He switched to the PPK, although I can't recall which caliber, after that.

Bond also carried the .25 in a "chamois" holster, which was just plain silly.

I've got a pre-1968 German-made PPK/S (no thumb rests to satisfy GCA68) that is rather unpleasant to shoot, and kind of heavy. I'd vote for a compact nine if I had to do that over again. But it's solid, and reliable. My range buddy just bought a new S&W version, and I prefer it, although it needs to be dehorned (sharp edges smoothed off, etc.).

I went to my dealer's the other month to look for a compact 9mm for myself and ended up with a second-hand S&W CS45. Almost the same weight, size, and form factor as a PPK/S, but about twice as fat. FWIW, it's also nearly as comfortable to shoot as my Commander, which surprised the heck out of me.

The little Smith is an excellent all-round carry, IMHO, but not a range gun, although it's quite accurate. I can still grab the PPK/S if I need something even smaller, or a couple of Commander sized guns for really serious carry.

Editorial: Don't join the "gun of the month club".... Always carry more or less in the same place, and at least be prepared to break the thumb-break if you're using one even if your current holster doesn't have one. Try to keep the safety mechanism similar, too, and practice as much as possible with everything you're likely to carry. Not just bullseye, too!
Stu.

(Why write a quick note when you can write a novel?)

(Why do those who claim to wish to protect me feel that the best way to do that is to disarm me?)

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gopguy
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Correcting some errors on Walthers in this line of postings

Post by gopguy »

In reading through this line of posts I saw quite a few mistakes I wanted to set straight. The post war Walther P1 is the military designation. The West German army adopted the gun as the P1 . The commercial and police guns were marked P38. Though later the army transfered their older P1 pistols to the police. That is why you will see them with both Bundeswehr and police markings though these are usually defaced with a large X. The grips are indeed different than the wartime grips, however they are identical to the pre war grips put on the Walther HP (Heeres Pistole)Army pistol. The gun was further modified and adopted by the Wehrmacht in 1938, hence the designation P38. If you want to learn more about Walthers I suggest reading either the Rankin books or if you are so inclined to go to a "Do not patronize while armed" local the Half Price book stores at Kenwood and by the Dayton Mall had a number of copies of Gene Gangarosa's "The Walther Handgun story". This will get you up to speed....you might even find some Ian Fleming there too...Which gets us to the next subject. Bond, James Bond.

In the original Ian Fleming books Bond carried a Beretta 6.35mm (.25 auto) It is not specified which model as there was the 318 and the 418. Bothe which are beautiful little guns. It is then replaced with a Walther PPK in 7.65mm(.32auto). Because the Beretta "jammed" nearly getting Bond killed.

Back to the Walthers. Don't buy one with the original numbers Xed out and renumbered. Those are rebuilt from broken guns and I have seen a few of those come a part......not pretty. Better to find one of the post 1975 guns with the reinforcing pin. Never use +p ammo in these old guns. These were made strictly for 115 grain ball ammo. You might find the rare post war gun that will feed hollow points but it is rare.

Here are some links.

http://www.whog.org/p38/index.htm

http://www.tjbd.co.uk/james-bond-weapons.htm

Tim
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Post by Petrovich »

haspelbein wrote:@Petrofergov

The Nagant revolver is definitely unique and is easily recognized when shown in movies. (I believe the Russian word for Revolver is still "Nagant", but I may be wrong.)
My problem is: There are still too many good guns with a lot of history attached that I don't call my own.

The "Polizeipistole kurz" would be one of them. Even though slightly outdated by its weight and availble calibers (.22, .25 ACP, .380 ACP), it is very slim and can be easily concealed.

Most of the ones I see today are offered in .380 ACP, but James Bond carried it in .25 ACP, I believe.
It would make sense that the name 'Nagant' would be synonymous with revolver....the Nagant brothers, Emile and Leon, designed this revolver over 100 years ago!! Revolver technology was rather primitive at that time and they still had such a good grasp of the concept they were able to design a mechanism to seal the gap between the barrel breech and the cylinder face.

Too bad their innovation didn't really amount to much in terms of increased performance but....hey...they get an 'A' for creativity.

The pistol also suffered from numerous design flaws that are clearly apparent in historical hindsight. It was not a particularly robust design, and underpowered as well. Reloading the firearm was difficult too.

Yet.....there's a BUNCH of history in those nagant revolvers and it's worth owning one at the ridiculously low current prices just to have one for a conversation piece.

I agree with you 100% on your assessment of the PPK. The profile of that weapon is just about as near perfection as you'll get for a carry piece. Not only did Bond James Bond have an excellent eye for chics...he was even more discretionary in regard to pistols.

Wait on the PPK....they'll always be available new....and surplus still turns up regularly.

I recommend a ...........guess again..........P-64.....woo hoo!!!!!! You guys are gonna get sick of me!

Seriously the dimensions are every bit as good as the PPK, and the quality is at least as good and my experiece has shown me that P-64's are actually tighter than the walthers. The designs are virtually identical. The 9x18 round is as good, or better, than .380.

Weight doesn't compare to polymer frames, obviously, but for an all steel gun weight is excellent. I use my P-64 for pocket carry all the time and find it better/easier to carry than the Kahr MK9.
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Post by SMMAssociates »

Jeff:

The original Bond gun was a Beretta .25. When somebody told Fleming how silly that was, the gun "malfunctioned", and he switched to a Walther PPK. I don't recall if it was .32ACP or .380ACP, though.

He also use a "chamois" holster in early novels - guaranteed to snag - and a larger pistol for "long range" use - a .22, I think.

For all his detail freaking, Fleming missed a few things....

Regards,
Stu.

(Why write a quick note when you can write a novel?)

(Why do those who claim to wish to protect me feel that the best way to do that is to disarm me?)

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Buckshot
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Post by Buckshot »

quit the board, delete
Last edited by Buckshot on Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Petrovich
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Post by Petrovich »

Buckshot wrote:
Archduke Ferdinand and his wife were done with an early Browning semi-auto design by FN, maybe the 1900.
Buckshot
Prolly just depends on which history book you read.

As far as the czar being assasinated....the source I read depicted the whole family being herded into a small room and gunned down by a squad of soldiers....perhaps using a variety of weapons.

I do recall (from reading) that the archduke's assassination was somewhat of a botched affair.....the perp just happened to be in the right place at absolutley the wrong time. He put a round in the archduke, then emptied the weapon on his wife.....jeesh....what was THAT supposed to mean?

The whole affair occurred at point blank range. Nagant revolvers weren't the most reknowned for accuracy.
gopguy
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Post by gopguy »

The czar of Russia, Nicholas II was murdered with his family in Ekaterinburg on July 16,1918. The leader of the Cheka squad that shot him was named Yakov Yurovsky and he used a Colt 1911 .45acp purchased by the British purchasing commission, to personally dispatch the Czar and his son Alexi. The gun is in the Kremlin archives and according to Edvard Radzinsky the serial number is 71905 . He also used a Mauser C96 (Broomhandle) 7.63mm when shooting the Czarina, the four Grand Dutchess', Demidova the maid and the family physician Dr. Botkin. The Mauser also at the Kremlin is #167177. The other members of the execution squad used a mix of Nagant revolver and Smith and Wesson #3 Russian models .44 pistols. Also Mosin Nagant rifles and their bayonets were used. The ladies had sewn the family jewels in their clothing and would not allow the pistol ammo to penetrate. When the pistols were not dropping them the thugs resorted to rifle and bayonet.

Franz Ferdinand was assasinated by Gavril Princip (Radzinsky's spelling but I have seen it other ways) with a Browning 1900. 32acp pistol. The pistol is also in a museum, but I do not have the number.


Again, Bond at first carried a Beretta 6.35mm (.25acp.) (Logically Either a mod 318 or 418 as the earlier Beretta .25auto models would be considered too outmoded by Ian Fleming ) He was later issued a Walther PPK in 7.65mm( .32 auto.) This was done on the advice of Major Geoffry Boothroyd, a noted British gun writer of the 50's and 60s, several books to his credit. His advice to Fleming earned him a honor in that from that point forward Q's real name in the books was Major Boothroyd. The Chamois holster was also quickly dropped after it was pointed out to him. I seem to remember the replacement was a Berns and Martin.

Tim
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Post by Petrovich »

Well shoot, I guess my nagant revolver ain't all that historical after all.

What about the term russian roulette? I read that story in a magazine and it said the term originated with russian military officers and the nagant revolver.

I also recall the story of the czar's female family member sewing jewells into their dresses. How would that stop a pistol round, though? It'd have to be solid gemstones and even at that a bullet would likely slip between the stones.

At any rate, that must have been a horrific event.
TunnelRat
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Post by TunnelRat »

Petrofergov wrote:At any rate, that must have been a horrific
event.
And these are the same kind of people who today want us to register our firearms, and who want to place all sorts of obstacles in the way of citizens who desire to own and carry personal defensive weapons...

Never surrender! Never retreat! The price of freedom is eternal vigilance! :!:
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"Applying the standard that is well established in our case law, we hold that the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States." ~ McDonald v. Chicago

When your only tools are a hammer and sickle, every problem starts to look like too much freedom.
gopguy
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Post by gopguy »

According to all the accounts I have read, and that is several, the jewels were sewn close together and the clothing was layered....think of it as very expensive kevlar without the trama plate. I have a special interest in what happened as I am distantly related to the Romanov, Hapsburg and Hollenzollern dynasties. So I have read much of what happened in those years between 1914 and the fall of the Dynasties in 1918.

Tom is right. Keep your ammo dry and in good supply. Keep your firearms in good working order. Tim :wink:
Petrovich
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Post by Petrovich »

gopguy wrote:According to all the accounts I have read, and that is several, the jewels were sewn close together and the clothing was layered....think of it as very expensive kevlar without the trama plate. I have a special interest in what happened as I am distantly related to the Romanov, Hapsburg and Hollenzollern dynasties. So I have read much of what happened in those years between 1914 and the fall of the Dynasties in 1918.

Tom is right. Keep your ammo dry and in good supply. Keep your firearms in good working order. Tim :wink:
It certainy is an interesting story. My family doesn't have any Russian roots I am aware of, but I have always had a fascination for Russia. They certainly have been quite the pioneers in small arms technology.

The Tula and Ishevesk (sp) armories still produce firearms today and there are innovative designs still coming from these facilities.

So....when we gonna shoot? Coshocton range sound ok???
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