Need for manual safety for CCW?

[MeanStreaker]

Hello, I haven't been to the range in a few years, but was trained when I was younger to safely handle firearms. I even won a few marksmanship trophies back in the day. I've handled several kinds of rifles but have only shot 22 caliber pistols (a six-shot revolver, and a Mark II). Now that I'm out of school and recently married it's time to get back into it. I'll eventually be using the weapon for CCW after some training to knock the rust off my skills. I've decided on 9mm, have been narrowing my choices down for awhile, and the Springfield XD Service is currently at the top of the list.

Now that you know a little bit about me, I can get to my question. The only thing that concerns me is the lack of a manual safety on most models. For me, the XD is edging out Glock because of the grip safety, which will put my mind at ease a little more while re-holstering. I've read all about how "the safety is more for the BG" and "it's just something else to snag while drawing" and "the only safety you need is between your ears" etc, etc. Was anyone else worried about the lack of a manual safety on their carry weapon? What put your mind to rest?

Thanks very much for helping. If anyone would like to suggest a good CCW course in the Dayton area, feel free to throw that in as well.

[CurtInOhio]

My wife and I took our course from Mad Duck, who's on here... he did a great job, and did it all in one long day. It was nice not to have to go back several times.

Someone on the sales side of the forum is selling a used Walther p99, which is what I have. I don't know the particulars on his, but mine has a very hard pull for the first trigger pull, then very easy for following pulls. I feel very safe with it, as that first pull is actually kind of tough to do. Out of the polymer types, I liked this one the best... really nice grip with changeable backstraps for different sized hands. I've shot an XD, and I personally prefer the Walther. If it works for James Bond, it works for me!

[TunnelRat]

I've decided on 9mm, have been narrowing my choices down for awhile...

...The only thing that concerns me is the lack of a manual safety on most models. For me, the XD is edging out Glock because of the grip safety, which will put my mind at ease a little more while re-holstering. I've read all about how "the safety is more for the BG" and "it's just something else to snag while drawing" and "the only safety you need is between your ears" etc, etc. Was anyone else worried about the lack of a manual safety on their carry weapon? What put your mind to rest?

I put my mind to rest by purchasing a pistol with a manual safety. You'll find such things on Model 1911s, Browing Hi-Powers, CZs and other fine products.

[SMMAssociates]

One thing to remember is that a great many people, including LEO's, have carried revolvers for at least 100 years. Practically none of them had or have manual safties....

That said, you can still AD a revolver if you're not careful stuffing it back into your holster, and if you like to single action the gun, it's even more interesting if you try to re-holster it cocked.

The semi's without external safeties are pretty much the same as revolvers. Internal safety devices of various types try to protect you, but holster issues and clothing can get you there, too.

Semi's with external safeties require that you absolutely do not forget to engage them before holstering. While the grip safety may be of some value here, if one's present, odds are you'd be holding it in the "fire" position anyway while trying to holster the gun....

Getting past the holstering issues, the only other thing to worry about is what I call the "Startle Factor". In short, what happens if you're holding the gun, have your finger on the trigger (we'll assume you're more or less about to shoot anyway) and are surprised in some way. (Short answer - keep your finger out of the trigger guard - but that's not always possible.) Safeties on 1911's generally would be off under these conditions. Long-trigger guns - DA/SA and DAO - though, require a significant length of pull that could keep you out of trouble, whether there's a safety or not.

There's probably no simple answer except practice, practice, practice....

Regards,

[TunnelRat]

the only other thing to worry about is what I call the "Startle Factor". In short, what happens if you're holding the gun, have your finger on the trigger (we'll assume you're more or less about to shoot anyway) and are surprised in some way. (Short answer - keep your finger out of the trigger guard - but that's not always possible.) Safeties on 1911's generally would be off under these conditions.

Rule Three: Keep your finger off the trigger til the sights are on the target.

I agree: under any practical manual of arms, if your finger is on the trigger, a 1911's safety would be off already.

[Petrovich]

XD's will get my vote any day!

A bit chunky, perhaps.

Remember you have 5 safety features on an XD.

trigger safety
grip safety
firing pin block safety
loaded chamber indicator
striker status indicator

All of these features are passive in that they require no deliberate act to engage or disengage.

[CurtInOhio]

Actually, the Walther p99 has 4 safeties... The trigger safety, the striker safety, the decocker safety, and the drop safety. I don't know why Springfield calls the loaded chamber indicator or striker status indicator a safety... they're just indicators... but the Walther has both of those, too, though I never rely on them. Plus, I like the AS trigger. And it's not chunky.

I try to use the brain safety mostly... don't put my finger where it shouldn't be when it shouldn't be, don't assume the gun is unloaded, don't point at something that's not expendable.

Not to start a this gun or that gun war, but out of the Glock, the Walther and the XD, I would go for the Walther. The only downside I see to it is that it's not as popular, so there aren't as many after market goodies for it, like a lasermax. From what I've heard, they're all great for reliability, but the Walther feels much better in my hand than the other 2, especially the Glock.

[Mad Duck]

XD's are quality guns
I like the features of the XD better than the Glock, but the biggest reason is the grip angle, they point like my browning's or the 1911.

But like any firearm Keeping your finger off the trigger until you have made the decision to fire,is vital

[Redhorse]

He lives in Kettering. Holds class at a local gun club.



Vince Amann
rifleman308@prodigy.net



Good instructor, you will like him!

[Glock and dagger]

Actually, lack of safeties are what got my attention with a Glock. Simple, reliable... that's all I require.

[ballistic]

By "manual safety" I take it you mean a safety which is independent of the firing mechanism and must be released before the gun will fire. Personally I regard this type of safety the same way as I regard thumbbreaks on holsters: just another thing to get in the way at the "moment of truth." Manual safeties are fine; just be sure you've conditioned yourself to release it with the draw. The consequences of not doing so range from very bad to much worse.

[SMMAssociates]

Ballistic:

The thumb break and other holster-mounted stuffs are there largely for retention.

Two types of retention, IMHO:

1. Don't have the gun remain seated when you stand up and similar things.

2. Don't let somebody else grab the thing.

Most concealed carry types really don't need to worry too much about the second one, but having a gun wander out of your holster is a common risk to everybody who's carrying.

'Bout all that means is that a thumb break and lots of practice is probably a good idea. The more complex retention holsters probably aren't....

The gun's manual safety, if any, is a training issue. Practice, practice, practice. However, avoid the "gun of the month" where you swap between something like a 1911 and a Glock.

If you're not going to go with a thumb break, an IWB is probably more secure, but.... I've got an Uncle Mike's IWB that I had to retire. I usually sit around the house in grubbies - an old pair of jeans, etc. Got out of the recliner more than once with the Commander still sitting there.... IMHO, leather IWB's work better.... My grubby holster these days is a simple slide from Cheaper Than Dirt. No retention, no nothing, but it's universal - about every gun I own can be carried in it, and it's leather, with enough "bite" to hold those guns pretty well.

Regards,

[Rob-Black99RT]

Actually, lack of safeties are what got my attention with a Glock. Simple, reliable... that's all I require.

+1... Holds up index finger... <---- Here is my manual safety

If I ever need my pistol to defend myself, I want to be able to get it into operation as quickly as possible, and I don't need one more mechanical thing that could break and make it inoperable screwing me up. Glocks are very simple, have very few parts, and can function even when some key parts break (ejector, for example).. I fired a few hundred rounds through my G30 after I broke the ejector off it to see if it would still function. Sure enough, no problems... It didn't throw the brass as high and a few of them landed directly on my wrist, but it still functioned without a hiccup.

[TunnelRat]

+1... Holds up index finger... <---- Here is my manual safety

If I ever need my pistol to defend myself, I want to be able to get it into operation as quickly as possible, and I don't need one more mechanical thing that could break and make it inoperable screwing me up. Glocks are very simple, have very few parts, and can function even when some key parts break (ejector, for example).. I fired a few hundred rounds through my G30 after I broke the ejector off it to see if it would still function. Sure enough, no problems... It didn't throw the brass as high and a few of them landed directly on my wrist, but it still functioned without a hiccup.

Whew! When I first read your post, I thought you were holding up your middle finger...

The manual of arms with the M1911 or Hi-Power is such that the safety is released as soon as the gun is drawn level: Grip, Clear, Click, Smack, Look.

The trouble comes when, as STU wrote, you're a Gun-of-the-Month-Club type. Anytime you change the action of the firearm you carry, you have to change your Manual of Arms. Such is not at all an easy thing to do.

It was for that very reason that I got rid of my beautiful Colt Lawman Mark III -- in order to open the cylinder you have to pull back on the release button, rather than push forward like on my Smith's and Taurus revolvers. When things get hairy, that sort of difference can give you a brain lock.

Same thing with my S&W 3913. It was a very nice little gun, but off safe is up, while off safe is down on my 1911's and Hi-Power. Thus I got rid of the little Smith auto in a hurry.

A manual safety in and of itself doesn't make bringing the weapon to bear any faster or slower. However, you have to train with one in order to click it off safe every time you go to fire. Otherwise you may get an unfortunate surprise. As ballistic has written:"The consequences of not doing so range from very bad to much worse."