General Purpose (hunting, plinking, target) Rifles and such

[rhwiley]

I know the general topic du jour deals with sidearms and such, but I'm curious about something else at the moment - hence why I'm placing this into the lounge.

I've been looking around for a general-purpose lower-costing rifle for some general ground-hog hunting and respectably decent-range (300-500 meter) target shooting.

I know I could go to the local store, and buy a 'whatever brand name', but I also sometimes like shooting things not everybody in the neighborhood has - this is how I first got hooked on Colt 1911's when everyone around me had to have a S&W or a Ruger).

I've been combing the surplus sources I usually look through anyway, and I'd like some input anyone might have about ballistics and or any other concern they might know about the item in question.

FYI - I've already considered the M1 Grand, but CMP is currently out of the one I've been drooling at, and I only want to do one of those at the moment to keep peace in the immediate area (my wife would kill me if I came home with one of those, and wanted to go get another within a few months).

Anyway, I'm down to a small list. As I said, any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated. I think the first two might fit the specifications, and maybe the third one would too. Here's what I've been able to locate:

Yugoslavian M48 8mm Mauser
Swiss 1931 Carbin Scmidt Rubin K31 7.5mm
Yugoslavian Model 59 7.62x39

[Willy P]

My 2 cents on the groundhog end of the question is that none of the rounds mentioned are something I would feel safe shooting at groundhogs in Ohio. I just personally feel we are too populated in the majority of the areas of the state. Even on a hit you will have a lot of energy left in any large part of the bullet. I have pretty much quit shooting my 22-250 due to the noise volume of it. I got rid of a 22 hornet as it ricocheted too much to make me feel it was safe here in Madison County and have since went to a 17 rem. as the little 25 grain pills out of it lose steam pretty quick past 300 or 400 yards and I have yet to hear it ricochet the first time. It is a heck of a fur round also as it almost never makes it out of anything it hits.

If you have some really hilly country to hunt then any should be ok. I'm partial to the 30 cals for bullet selection on handloading. I don't have much experience on ballistics of any of the rounds to figure drops over ranges but the 7.62 X 39's are cheap and abundant for plinkers.

[rhwiley]

If you have some really hilly country to hunt then any should be ok. I'm partial to the 30 cals for bullet selection on handloading.

Thanks for the input. I'm not too worried about the travelling, basically because of the hills. Most of my plinking and ground hog hunting is in my home county of Carroll County - lots of rolling hills there.

I've also considered a .30 Cal. M1 Carbine, but forgot to add that to the list as well. The 7.62 X 39 rifle has been a consideration for a while, but I'm really not familiar with the round - other than messing around with them in AK-47's overseas. I've also heard some good stuff on the other two, but I'm really at a quandary when picking just one (for the moment). Thanks again!

[Javelin Man]

You have a good couple of rifles listed. I fired my Swiss K-31 for the first time today. I did better with the iron sights alone than I did with my Saiga with 3-9X scope. All my shooting was through a gun vise so I don't know how much it really kicks. It would do for your 300-500 meter shooting, but the price of ammunition isn't too nice for general plinking; about 40 cents a round up to $1 a shot. I sure enjoyed the trigger!

An SKS would be nice for plinking and groundhog shooting up to 100-150 yards. Ammunition is about 8 cents up to 75 cents if you go modern manufactured hollow points. I think you might be disappointed 300 meters and out for target shooting.

An AK isn't really considered accurate enough for long range shooting, though some people will disagree with that. However, few will disagree that it can't be beat for plinking fun! I'll find out soon as I put one on layaway for $299 at Dunhams.

I also have a Mosin-Nagent 91/30 that I want to shoot soon. I only had room in my Vue for two rifles today so I took the K31 and Saiga. The 91/30 is a little cheaper than the K31 and so is the ammunition. It is said to be as accurate. I'll find out soon. It's pretty darn long, though! The ammunition is very similar to the K31 in size and velocity. It'll probably kick me just as hard. I've heard the Mosin Nagent 44 kicks like a mule as it is the same rifle only in carbine form.

Just giving another option in the 91/30, caliber 7.62x54R.

Good luck in your decision.

[Buckshot]

I know the general topic du jour deals with sidearms and such, but I'm curious about something else at the moment - hence why I'm placing this into the lounge.

I've been looking around for a general-purpose lower-costing rifle for some general ground-hog hunting and respectably decent-range (300-500 meter) target shooting.

I know I could go to the local store, and buy a 'whatever brand name', but I also sometimes like shooting things not everybody in the neighborhood has - this is how I first got hooked on Colt 1911's when everyone around me had to have a S&W or a Ruger).

I've been combing the surplus sources I usually look through anyway, and I'd like some input anyone might have about ballistics and or any other concern they might know about the item in question.

FYI - I've already considered the M1 Grand, but CMP is currently out of the one I've been drooling at, and I only want to do one of those at the moment to keep peace in the immediate area (my wife would kill me if I came home with one of those, and wanted to go get another within a few months).

Anyway, I'm down to a small list. As I said, any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated. I think the first two might fit the specifications, and maybe the third one would too. Here's what I've been able to locate:

Yugoslavian M48 8mm Mauser
Swiss 1931 Carbin Scmidt Rubin K31 7.5mm
Yugoslavian Model 59 7.62x39

RH,

Of your list, the most accuracte and most versitile will be the K31 Swiss.

GP 11 Swiss ammo is expensive and berdan primed so not easily reloadable. Other possabiloities do exist. Thre are ac couple of smaller oiutfits that are makin/importing reloadable ammo for it. Norma had and still has cases and loaded ammo but both are expensive. You can reload froming cases out of .284 Wincehster. The rim is too small but works about 80+% of the time depending on the individual rifle.

The sights here are straight blade front and U notch rear.

If you reload now or plan to reload, the K31 Swiss is the way to go, you can get a .30 cal. bullet to do anything with, and the K31shoots .30 cal. (0.308") bullets.

The M48 Yugo is not a bad rifle. It has BAD (at leas for me and most guys over 30) sights with an inverted V (pointed blade ^) front and V notch rear sights. Surplus 8mm ammo is cheaper than GP 11 Ssiss, though you have missed the cheapest which is not gone from wholesalers. You have much less selection when reloading for 8mm.

This also holds for various other 8mm Mausers from Yugoslavia, Turkey and other places.

The SKS is a good rifle and I suggest it as a first Homeland Defense Rifle, but it is limited to 150 - 200 yards, 250 if you are a good and experienced rifleman.

The sights here are straight blade front and U notch rear.

Mosin-Nagnats are some fo the best deals out there right now. They are available in 91/30 (27' barrel) and carbines (22" barrels) with (M44) and without (M38 and M91/59) a folding bayonet. If you look you can also find the old M91 with the 29" barrel, though no wholesalers I know of now have them except as parts guns.

These rifles are the crudest of the bunch, tough enough that an Imperial Russian peasant couldn't break! They are also suprisingly accurate. There are several versions of surplus ammo, some imported commercial ammo and even some higher end US ammo available for them.
Youcan also reload them and use bullets available for the 7.62 X 39 (SKS cartridge) and those intended for the .303 British, including a Sierra 174 gr. Matchking. They used bullets sized 0.311" - 0.312").

The sights here are also straight blade front and U notch rear.

Thre are also the Enfields out there. No. 1 Mk. III series with open sights, straight blade front and U notch rear; and No. 4 Mk. I series with straight blade front and peep rear sights.

No good surplus ammo available for them any more. Reloadable, see bullet remarks for the Russian Mosin-Nagant rifles.

Good rifles, these are THE bolt action combat rifles.

HTH,

Buckshot

[Petrovich]

Is there such a thing as a low cost, all purpose rifle?

I'm with Willy on this. The surplus rifles are way overpowered.

For GP use in Ohio...and I know I'll catch dickens for this....I'll go with .17HMR. It'll pop a whistle pig deader'n a doornail. Safety is SUPERIOR. Accuracy is excellent. The cost of a rifle and scope are reasonable, and ammunition is reasonable.

[Redhorse]

Well Willy, my .22 Hornet has never ricocheted on me. I'm pushing a 35 gr V-Max ballistic tip with 10.3 gr of Alliant 2400. This recipe is getting me around 2825 FPS, and that V-Max frags on impact. Can't say it's that good out past 200yds tho... 250 is a real stretch.

I have killed ground hogs with SKS, Romanian Dragonov, .30-.30, .300 win mag, etc (won't be long and I'll add .50 to that list). One simply needs to take into consideration the ground being hunted and execute safe shots. It's the best way to keep "tuned up" with your big gun!

Carroll county is nice and hilly. Never hunted out there yet, but I go Muskie fishin' over at Leesville Res. a few times every year.

Have to say you've picked some nice rifles to chose from there rhwiley.

Nice thing about the mauser would be all the after market accessories you could trick it out with later if you decided to...lots of options. You could even re-barrel it to a different caliber very easy.

7.62X39 is cheap and versatile plus you can load it to your own specks for varmints! However it is lacking in the down range department.

Javalin Man points out an overlooked caliber in the 7.62X54. There is an abundance of surplus ammo available, along with some modern manufactured hunting loads. Again, you can load to your own specks...(lot's of 7.62 diameter projectiles to chose from). Lot's of those rifles out there and they are dependable, yet innexpensive. Still fits the bill for "not everyone in the neighborhood has one" as there are many varients from several countries to chose from

Good luck making your final choice. Smack some groundhogs with it!!!!

[Petrovich]

Nice thing about the mauser would be all the after market accessories you could trick it out with later if you decided to...lots of options. You could even re-barrel it to a different caliber very easy.

I wouldn't say it's very easy!

There's a good bit of machining skill goes into that project. I'm still working up to it.

As far as the rest of the work goes such as metal finish, stock finish, bedding and so on....it's fairly foolproof.

Think of what the gunsmith does to rebarrel a mauser.

tune the threads of the barrel. Or better yet, start with a blank. Nominal thread sizes are not the best. Proper threading of the barrel is done to match the receiver and there are differences among individual receivers.

Truing the receiver. This is simply recutting the original threads to make sure they are perfect. Pretty ticklish to set that one up. Or, use a tap designed for that purpose.

cut the shoulder back to fit the receiver perfectly. No easy task and requires repeated trial fits.

finish reaming the chamber...too much here and you go all the way back to square one.

Face the bolt.

Bend or replace the bolt handle and reforge the bolt.

Drill and tap for a scope.

[Redhorse]

I guess when your used to barreling FAL's and setting head space on them...doing a mauser doesn't seem like that much more work.

Did some inletting on a stock for a buddy today.

Still have to finish the mauser I've been working on for myself...It's pretty close!

[Petrovich]

I guess when your used to barreling FAL's and setting head space on them...doing a mauser doesn't seem like that much more work.

Did some inletting on a stock for a buddy today.

Still have to finish the mauser I've been working on for myself...It's pretty close!

Never messed with a FAL.

What are you chambering your mauser in? I am currently working on two mauser projects. One is 22-250 and the other is .243.

I have a couple very pretty laminated stocks for them.

A friend of mine made a very impressive jig for jeweling bolts...so now I get to have jewelled bolts.

Do you pillar bed your stocks. I do both. I pillar bed the tang and I glass bed the recoil lug area. The barrel is completely relieved.

Progress is slow. I haven't had time to mess with them much.

Heck, I bought a lathe and a mill three years ago and I haven't rebarrelled my first mauser with it yet. I'm still learning how to use the thing. The projects I'm doing now were rebarreled professionally.

[Buckshot]

Redhorse,

P4G is throwing a bunch of smoke at you!

2/3 of the steps he is listing are for BENCHREST GRADE firearms, not a standard hunting Mauser!

They are al little harder than a FAL or AR, but no where near what he is talking about.

You can buy a short chambered barrel from Midway, screw it into your action till it locks up and then use a cutter you also buy from Midway and slowly deepen the chamber by hand till it will accept a GO gauge.

Probably the same $$ in tooling as for an FAL but a different tooling set.

Buckshot

[Redhorse]

I'm building a hunting mauser and (so far) have left it with the original 8 mm bbl on it.
I may change that later to a .270 for antelope hunting out west.
The stock is inleted, head space is correct (had to replace the bolt), all metal is reblued, reciever is drilled and tapped for scope.
I need to turn down my bolt handle, glass bed the action, and mount the scope.
Haven't bought the bolt turning jig yet. Figure that will make a good winter project.

FAL's are tricky when it comes to getting the proper timing for your rebarreling. Then you need to know how to measure for the right locking shoulder to get your head space correct (unless you are lucky/wealthy enough to own the guage).

[Petrovich]

Redhorse,

P4G is throwing a bunch of smoke at you!

2/3 of the steps he is listing are for BENCHREST GRADE firearms, not a standard hunting Mauser!

They are al little harder than a FAL or AR, but no where near what he is talking about.

You can buy a short chambered barrel from Midway, screw it into your action till it locks up and then use a cutter you also buy from Midway and slowly deepen the chamber by hand till it will accept a GO gauge.

Probably the same $$ in tooling as for an FAL but a different tooling set.

Buckshot

Whoa cowboy!!

What in sam heck is a "hunting grade" mauser????

If you're gonna go to that much trouble building a rifle there is NO SENSE building a bubba special.

On offense, but man you are WRONG.

Daggone it I hate to be disagreeable, but that takes the cake.

Redhorse..if you are unwilling or unable to go the extra steps then pay a couple hundred bucks and let someone do the rebarreling and machining part. It is money well spent. You will end up with a tackdriver.

Even if you hire out that part, there is STILL plenty of work left for you to do. Trust me...I'm doing it. You can still call it your own creation and be quite proud of it.

[Redhorse]

It's not on my priority list right now to put the XTRA time or XTRA money (which I don't have) into this particular mauser. I can jerk the barrel off of it whenever I want to and make it a "tack driver". I can drive "tacks" with my .300 win. The top slot on my firearms priority list is currently occupied by a .50 BMG which I am in the process of loading match grade rounds for so that I can make IT a "tack driver"

Gun fund is pretty depleted after buying components and such for the biggun...and I haven't found my load yet

I can...and am willing to do the rebarreling and machining. Just not right now. It's got a good barrel on it, and I've got ammo for it, so I'm gonna shoot groundhogs with my bubba special until I decide different

[Petrovich]

It's not on my priority list right now to put the XTRA time or XTRA money (which I don't have) into this particular mauser. I can jerk the barrel off of it whenever I want to and make it a "tack driver". I can drive "tacks" with my .300 win. The top slot on my firearms priority list is currently occupied by a .50 BMG which I am in the process of loading match grade rounds for so that I can make IT a "tack driver"

Gun fund is pretty depleted after buying components and such for the biggun...and I haven't found my load yet

I can...and am willing to do the rebarreling and machining. Just not right now. It's got a good barrel on it, and I've got ammo for it, so I'm gonna shoot groundhogs with my bubba special until I decide different

I wasn't referring to your present configuration as a 'bubba special.' In fact, I have a mauser with it's original barrel cut down to 20". It is easy to cut a barrel and recrown it using hand tools. In fact, recrowning/freshening a muzzle is one of the simplest things you can do to help accuracy. A very nice rifle can be made simply by shortening the barrel, removing the rear sight, mounting a scope (with one piece scope mount for extra stability), sporterizing/lengthening/bedding etc. the stock. I have one like it and it is a fine shooter. .7.92 by 57 is an outstanding, big game cartridge.

One must remember, however, a sporterized mauser is a far cry from a custom mauser. Sporterized versions, even though they might be excellent shooters, are virtually worthless. They don't even have the value of the original, intact firearm and those are a dime a dozen in many casees. That is why you NEVER sporterize any mauser with much of a collectors value. That includes Persians, Swedes, Argentines...etc. If yer gonna bubbaize always choose a turk, yugoslavian or something of that nature. Better still, find a mauser that someone else already screwed up, or one with a ruined bore. A receiver will outlast a barrel. Heck, by the time the first bore is shot out a mauser receiver is just getting broke in good. About the only way you can mess one up is by letting it rust.

I was referring to buckshot's enormously oversimplified version of rebarreling. Sheesh, it you are going to the trouble and expense of rebarreling it only makes sense to do everything you can to enhace accuracy.

There are many things you can do when customizing a mauser that will mean the difference between a rifle with marginal accuracy, and one with outstanding accuracy. Heckuvitis, you'll never know for sure what you have until you sight it in. By then, it's too late because it will be extremely difficult to troubleshoot the problem...there are just too many variables. What you'll end up with for all your time, trouble and money is a pretty gun that never leaves the house.

One of the most charming things about the mauser is it's old world design. Yes, the were standardized but a heck of a lot of craftsmanship still went into each and every rifle. It ain't like an AR where it is, literally, usually a simple matter of screwing out the old barrel and screwing in another.

Yes, you are quite correct. You can always strip the receiver and start from scratch when time/money allows.

I just get a little irked when someone says it's easy as yanking out the old barrel, screwing in another and reaming the chamber.....YIKES!!