ODOW legal deer rounds (was CCW Encounters )

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Willy P
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ODOW legal deer rounds (was CCW Encounters )

Post by Willy P »

So far this is just to hold a space for a discussion we are moving off the CCW Encounters list to be polite.
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Post by TunnelRat »

Okay, I'll bite: What is the Ohio law regarding hunting ammunition?

Are the requirements for handgun ammunition significantly different from those for rifle ammunition?

Do the requirements change for the different hunting seasons? I wouldn't suppose deer, turkey, and grouse all get the same requirements...

Who enforces the law, how do they enforce it, and what sort of penalties are there?
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Re: ODOW legal deer rounds (was CCW Encounters )

Post by jgarvas »

Willy P wrote:So far this is just to hold a space for a discussion we are moving off the CCW Encounters list to be polite.
FYI:

The discussion on CCW Encounters was moved to Firearms and Gear (its about laser grips, not encounters with law enforcement?)
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Redhorse
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Post by Redhorse »

We aren't even allowed to use rifles for deer in Ohio Tom...well, except those fortunate enough to be on a crop damage permit.
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Willy P
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Post by Willy P »

Tom the only rifles allowed in OH for deer are front stuffers ( muzzle loading rifles ) of 38 or larger caliber but they can be any ignition type that is commonly used ( flint, side lock percussion, or inline with 209 shotgun primers on down to #11 caps. ) Shot guns are 410 or larger less than 8 gauge using a single ball , slug or bullet. Plugged magazine to make the 3 shot or less limit. Handguns are getting interesting as they now are 357 diam. or larger with a 5 inch min barrel using a straight walled cartridge. Traditionally the rounds were 357 - 41 and 44 mags and the 45 long colt.

Thus the discussion we moved here from the laser sight thread. We were debating the legality of the 40 S&W due to it not being rimmed. I called DOW dist. 1 and asked an officer Thurs. about it and was told when they called me back that semiauto rounds were legal as long as they me the diam. limit and were straight walled. It lets some rounds until now used to a limited extent for deer into the ball game. Due to my sort of fragile state here for a bit I am entertaining the 40 cal 1911 I have for a deer round. For 2 reasons. Low recoil and to see if I want to bet my life on the round or not as a defensive round. I honestly want to see what it does on something that is alive and not human. I hope I never need to use it no a human but I want to see if I can count on it. I have seen folks say they are using it on mountain lion with good success but lots used a 22 mag on them for years so they would stay in the tree and not jump down into the dogs below resulting in some being torn up or killed before the cats died. I've not seen how quick the cats go down as a result of the 40 but staring one down at point blank range, especially at night or if it had hold of me, I'd want more than a 40.

I had also thrown in that I feel we need a 500 footpound min. limit on energy for deer rounds . That rules out the 45 Long Colt I believe though and would be tough to get accepted here in the state.
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Post by TunnelRat »

Willy P wrote:Tom the only rifles allowed in OH for deer are front stuffers ( muzzle loading rifles )
Rifles aren't allowed for deer????? :?: You gotta be kidding!! :!:
(I am not a hunter, so I don't know these things).
Wow, that seems really dumb. What is the reasoning behind that rule?
Willy P wrote:Handguns are getting interesting as they now are 357 diam. or larger with a 5 inch min barrel using a straight walled cartridge. Traditionally the rounds were 357 - 41 and 44 mags and the 45 long colt.
Hmmm, does this mean I can hunt using my 5" Government Model 1911 in .45acp? (That's the only pistol I own with a 5" barrel :? ).
Willy P wrote:Thus the discussion we moved here from the laser sight thread. We were debating the legality of the 40 S&W due to it not being rimmed. I called DOW dist. 1 and asked an officer Thurs. about it and was told when they called me back that semiauto rounds were legal as long as they me the diam. limit and were straight walled. It lets some rounds until now used to a limited extent for deer into the ball game.

Okay, so I can use .45acp out of a 5" barrel?
Can I use hollowpoints, or am I limited to ball ammunition by the Geneva Convention (or the Hague Convention, whatever -- not that the deer are signatories of either 8) ).
Willy P wrote:Due to my sort of fragile state here for a bit I am entertaining the 40 cal 1911 I have for a deer round.

On accounta you're still wincing and puffing after your shoulder surgery? So you don't wanna use a .44 magnum pistol (or the Thumb-Buster Linabaugh) like a man? :wink: Instead you want to try a wussy .40 S&W auto? Am I on the same page now?
Willy P wrote:For 2 reasons. Low recoil and to see if I want to bet my life on the round or not as a defensive round.
Interesting ... two very good reasons...
Willy P wrote:I honestly want to see what it does on something that is alive and not human. I hope I never need to use it no a human but I want to see if I can count on it.
Yeah, .45acp (even using ball ammunition) will bring a man down in a hurry. I don't know about .40 caliber, though many police departments seem to be switching to it -- and for the very reasons that you mention.
Willy P wrote:I have seen folks say they are using it on mountain lion with good success but lots used a 22 mag on them for years so they would stay in the tree and not jump down into the dogs below resulting in some being torn up or killed before the cats died.
I have never seen that, but I can imagine that dogs can be pretty hard on cats...(and vice versa :? ).
Willy P wrote:I've not seen how quick the cats go down as a result of the 40 but staring one down at point blank range, especially at night or if it had hold of me, I'd want more than a 40.
Yeah, I think I'd want a high powered rifle (or is that not allowed either? Are we allowed to use pointy sticks...?).
Willy P wrote:I had also thrown in that I feel we need a 500 footpound min. limit on energy for deer rounds . That rules out the 45 Long Colt I believe though and would be tough to get accepted here in the state.
And how would you go about measuring that? Would you have to check muzzle velocity and bullet weight for each caliber and type of round, and then work out the mathematics? Or would you just trust the manufacturers stats? How would ODNR go about checking for energy limits?

You raise a number of interesting points. Not quite enough to stir me up to go out and shoot a deer, but interesting nonetheless... :)
TunnelRat

"Applying the standard that is well established in our case law, we hold that the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States." ~ McDonald v. Chicago

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Willy P
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Post by Willy P »

Tom the #1 reason to hunt deer is because you love it and being in the outdoors. The #1 reason and the only reason for me to actually shoot one is because you love to eat deer meat.

The shoulder has had a couple years to heal up and is ok to go on anything I want to shoot. The surgeon that took the verteba and disks out of my neck and put in all the metal and screws thinks my head will snap off if I take too much recoil, or at least the plate may pop loose and cut the major blood vessel it is sitting next too. Wimp doctors!!

No centerfire rifles for deer in OH due to close proximity of houses and people.

I'd ask on the 45 for sure just to be safe but I would think it is ok, Oh government issues again. AND hollowpoint ammo. Ball is like sticking a half inch pencil through them. OK that is a lot of blood let out but I like hollowpoints on flesh and blood things for the most part.

Tom coon and lion dogs are in the thousands of dollars to buy and proven ones go higher :shock:

WY uses published manufaturer stats or a physics formula much as the IPSC folks to do determine maj or minor cal. numbers. No I don't know it. It's worth a couple bucks for a book with it in it for me so I don't have to do the math, but I bet there are some on here that could whip it down in a second or more.
Willy P
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Post by Willy P »

BTW Tom if a lion gets me I am crappin my pants till there is nothing left of me to eat but skin and hair! :P

Now if I could just get all my fingers doin what my brain wants them to when I type
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Post by Ursus americanus »

From ODNR
ODNR wrote:Gun Season and Youth Deer Gun Season:

10, 12, 16, 20, 28, or .410 gauge shotgun using one ball or one rifled slug per barrel (rifled shotgun barrels are permitted when using shotgun slug ammunition); or muzzleloading rifle .38 caliber or larger; or handgun with 5-in. minimum length barrel, using straight-walled cartridges .357 caliber or larger, or longbow, crossbow (draw weight limitations same as for Archery Season).

Shotguns cannot be capable of holding more than three shells. This means you may not hunt with a shotgun capable of holding more than three shells, unless it is plugged with a one-piece filler which limits the capacity of the gun to three shells. The filler must be such that it cannot be removed without disassembling the gun.
Yes you can use a 1911 in 45ACP as long as your handgun has a minimum barrel length of 5 inches.

Here is where the ODNR makes no sense. I have a Ruger Vaquero in 45 LC with a 5" barrel. I can legally hunt with this hand gun. I also have a Marlin 1894 Lever rifle in 45LC. I can take a 45LC cartridge, plae it in the Vaquero and I am legal - if I place that same cartridge inb the Marlin I am illegal.

Go figure.

G
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AlanM
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Muzzle energy

Post by AlanM »

Muzzle energy (in foot-pounds) equals velocity (in ft/sec) squared times
mass (in grains) divided by 450436.


E = (v^2*m)/450436


ARM
Willy P
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Post by Willy P »

I understand your situation Ursus A. A nice little Ruger carbine in 44 mag would be sweet to tote around and an easy round for young ones to learn with. I'm not hopefull we will ever see the day that anyone is going to be allowed to use it. Just think you or I can put a 45-70 round in a long barreled handgun with a scope and use it but it too is a no no in a rifle. By and large more folks are more proficient with it that way also! That is what makes my muzzle loader my favorite, a 200 gr. 40 cal bullet at 2600 fps, it shoots to 200 or so yards with point blank sighting/aiming and is the most efficient long arm I have ever used at taking deer. I've never seen my 06 do what it does to them.

AlanM Thanks for the formula. I know someone on here could rattle it off with ease. Now if there was a way to factor in frontal diameter it could be perfect . As long as a mass of folks agreed on what factor frontal diameter figures into it. I think there is an important place for it to fill when velocities are slower and that drops the foot pound numbers down some.
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Post by Redhorse »

I have to agree Willy, the #1 reason to deer hunt is to put meat in the freezer! :D
My family eats deer meat on a regular basis (I don't buy beef). On top of that, my children help process the deer when I bring them home. 8)
Some may say the .357 is not sufficient for effectively harvesting a deer. I've also been told my .40 cal flintlock with spit patched, hand molded roundball is "too small for deer hunting". I know different!
I would never say your use of a .40 S&W is insufficient to harvest a deer sized animal. Shot placement is the key :!:
However...it was my understanding that all semi-auto calibers were illegal in the state of Ohio.
The only semi-auto pistols legal for use in Ohio were those using a straight walled "revolver" cartridge. If that has changed, it was never made clear to the "hunting public" and I would question the source of the information. :?
I can kill a deer with a .22 :!: It's just not legal to do.

It should be legal to use (in my oppinion) any firearm the hunter can competantly harvest game with.
The problem with that is those people who don't understand thier own (or their firearms) limitations.

:wink: got 1 goose the last evening of the early season...looking forward to grouse season!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Willy P
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Post by Willy P »

Redhorse I never thought much of a roundball till I saw the results of what they will do. They work - very well too I might add!

Congratulations on the goose. I'm watching all the doves sitting around and dieing wanting to get a few, knowing it is going to be next year before I can.

I have one last source of info on the semi auto rounds debate. I can ask a buddy that works for the parks to have the Franklin County officer let me know. If we had our old officer here I could have walked over to his house and just asked him. I'm really inclined to believe the officer at the div 1 office I talked to since so much time was taken on the answer. What the heck I have time to kill and season is a few months away yet.
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Post by Redhorse »

Willy, you had asked me before about the energy I was getting out of my .41 mag. I have only loaded for it once and that was just to use up some bullets I acquired that were not my preferred weight for hunting. I haven't played around to find a load with more energy transfer than what I'm using.

Winchester factory load 210 gr, semi-jacketed hollow points.

I put two rounds through a BIG doe at about 78 yds. First round passed through the rib cage behind the shoulders. Second round hit the ball and socket of the shoulder and turned it to bone meal, passed through both sides of the rib cage, then turned the ball and socket on the other side to bone meal. The projectile was stopped by the epidermis and recovered (fell on the floor) when skinning the deer. I have the bullet here if you'd like to examine it some time...it's a beautiful example of controlled expansion. One thing I never did is weigh the bullet and find out how the weight retension was. Think I'll do that out of curiosity one of these days.

That was certainly an adequate amount of energy especially at that extended range.

I thought the deer was smaller and closer (surprisingly hard to accurately judge distance with nothing to guage it against but plow furrows). Turns out it was BIG and much farther away than I expected. Probably wouldn't have taken the shot had I known actual yardage. Sometimes ignorance is bliss!

I had sighted the pistol in at 50 yds. and was very confident in my ability to place a shot at that range. Two other deer I harvested with that pistol were both dropped by head shots at under 50 yds. 8)
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